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anon
The next person who says or implies that anyone pro-life just wants to control women’s bodies, I might just lose it.
These videos. The heart was beating. And they harvested the brain through the face.
Maybe you don’t agree with me. But these videos establish at the very least that there are very, very real reasons to be against abortion.
Amy
+1
Kdlaf
Its a free country so you are entitled to your opinion just as the next person. However, don’t forget that people have the right to disagree with you just as much as you disagree with them. The “pro-life” and pro-choice debate is about CHOICE. Most people aren’t pro abortion itself but the right to make that CHOICE, so I like to call pro “lifers” anti choicers.
The reason people imply that anti-choicer want to control women’s bodies is because they want to control that choice that a woman (in my opinion) should be free to make – depending on the stage in pregnancy but regardless of her circumstances (ie. raped, bad financial or family situation, etc.).
Anonymous
Many of the people you are labeling as “anti choice” do support choice, but believe that CHOICE occurs when a women willingly, freely, consciously engages in an act that a 5th grader knows can result in conception. Cases of rape present a different circumstance for which people who follow this belief support exceptions, political extremism notwithstanding (just look at any poll of actual voters).
anon
That’s a great point.
Anonymous
Clearly you have never had a condom break or bc fail.
TNT
There’s a couple of issues here, not least of which is the fact that state and local governments are continually attempting to restrict a school’s ability to ensure that a 5th grader does, in fact, understand the ramifications of s*xual activity.
Also, this narrative right here is the one that plays into the statements that women are out there just signing up for abortions because they don’t feel like raising the child they accidentally conceived. There are, as I said initially, many many reasons to have an abortion. I’m sure you understand that it is possible for a woman to willingly, freely, consciously engage in that act with the intent to conceive, only to have it subsequently become medically necessary to abort the pregnancy. What then?
Finally, are you seriously suggesting that someone who is, at that point in their lives, unprepared to raise a healthy happy child is relegated to a celibate life? Do you truly believe that procreation is or should be the only point of s*x?
Cimorene
+1
Anon.2
So, for women who are wives and mothers who are done having children, and neither partner has had a vasectomy or tied tubes, does that mean the couple should stop having s*x?
anon
so, basically, it’s not that it’s a “precious life” that can’t be killed, the issue for these anti-choicers is that a woman had s*x.
And you wonder why people think you just hate women/ want to control their bodies.
You say a women “willingly, freely, consciously engages in an act” as if the inquiry is simply a choice to have s*x this Tuesday or sometime next week. But it’s not. The real inquiry is whether a woman can realistically choose not to have s*x with the possibility of becoming pregnant over the course of her entire life. News flash: women may choose whether to have s*x in any particular instance, but women don’t choose the fact that they can become pregnant. Short of a hysterectomy or tubal litigation, there is no free, conscious choice a woman can make that will allow her to have s*x without *some risk of pregnancy*– those simply aren’t parameters that are available to her. That’s a function of her biology, not her free choices. Think about what you’re proposing: under your rules, women have NO CHOICE whatsoever but to either choose a life of celibacy or to bear any children they may become pregnant with. Do you really think that life long celibacy is a reasonable expectation for women?
DisenchantedinDC
I don’t understand how you can support a rape exception if you believe that a life is a life that begins at conception. What would make an abortion acceptable in that case? It certainly sounds more palatable on the political stage, but I genuinely don’t understand – it seems like you either fall on one side of the fence or the other when it comes to abortion legality/morality. Not trying to be inflammatory, would be interested in hearing reasoning from those who believe this.
thoughtful pro-lifer
I usually avoid these conversations because I think they are aggressive and inflammatory, and its rare that they actually come from a perspective of people attempting to reach a shared understanding or find common ground. But since you sound like you actually want to understand I will take you at your word:)
I am pro-life, and believe me, I’ve read extensively on the topic. I have a politics degree and have read all of the classic pro-choice arguments, and I think I have a good understanding of many of the well-thought out arguments on that side.
I’m also a surgeon, and I’ve spent many long nights operating on 22 or 23 week old babies, fighting to keep these little people alive. I have a pretty good concept of what a baby is like at different gestational ages.
In response to your question- we constantly make decisions that balance multiple bad outcomes.
We put a cost on human lives constantly- we decide which drugs to fund (from R&D, to which ones we will produce, to which ones insurance companies, medicare and medicaid will pay for). In socialized medicine we even put a number on it- how much, as a society, we are willing to pay to per QALY (quality-adjusted life year). We decide which person gets triaged into the first ambulance at an accident scene, and which person is less likely to survive no matter what we do- so they wait. We decide how many ambulances to fund, knowing that we will sometimes not have enough. We decide who gets the donor heart. We make these decisions every single day, as a society, as well as individuals. We don’t get to be moral absolutists- you have to weigh multiple negatives and decide which is the best of bad options.
I think that the loss of a baby’s life is a loss.
Sometimes the harm of that death is outweighed by the harm to another person, or the infringement on another person’s rights, or the pain another person will suffer. For example, killing a fetus to save the mothers life may be reasonable- not because you aren’t causing a harm, but because you would also be causing a harm by letting the mother die, and you have to weigh the two. Perhaps the potential in the child’s life is less valuable than the established life of the mother and those who depend on her. The same sort of a justification can be used for a rape exception, or incest, or babies with severe congenital anomalies who are likely to have truncated, painful lives. The incredible suffering that would be experienced could be considered to outweigh the harm of the loss of a life.
It’s easy to think of life as the ultimate good, but this is not necessarily true. People withdraw their loved ones from care when the level of suffering appears intolerable- deciding that death is the preferable option. Patients tell me all the time that they do not wish to be kept alive and suffering. People routinely decide to accept a lesser quantity of time alive to avoid the suffering associated with life-prolonging treatment. Death is a bad outcome- but its not the only bad outcome, and not always the worst.
I think many people feel this intuitively, and this is why they are open to abortion in some circumstances- when carrying the child carries the potential for great harm. However, when the amount of harm is less, it is harder to weight it over the loss of the child’s life.
TNT
I really enjoyed reading this, thanks!
TBK
Thank you. This is beautiful. And thank you for the work you do. I was at risk for preterm labor at 23 weeks and beyond with my twins. I was and will always be profoundly grateful for the doctors and nurses who stood by to fight for their lives if the need arose. (Luckily they were born at 37.5 weeks and completely healthy .)
Trish
Yup. Rape exceptions are hypocritical.
Kdlaf
Interesting point but that ignores the fact that many women who chose to have abortions do CHOOSE to have s*x (why do people blur this word on this site btw?? -just wondering) but are uneducated and not in the best place in life to be raising a child. I would find anti-choicers opinion valid if they believe that people should have the right to live life across the lifespan – not just at birth/conception. Do you also believe that women should get assistance to education, financial resources, and social services that would prevent her from having to make this “CHOICE” in the first place? Or do you think ‘oh its her fault – she should just deal with having the baby regardless of how the child’s life ends up’?
I just ask all of that because so many anti-choice people I’ve come across seem to be obsessed with conception and birth but don’t give two sh*ts about the child’s life trajectory and condition once it is born.
Of course in chances of rape, incest, etc women don’t have a choice, but even when they do it is more so a symptom of the greater socio-economic problems in American society as a whole. If you don’t see how those problems need to be equally addressed as “pro-life” ones than are you really pro life?
TNT
If we don’t insert the asterisk in s*x, the comment gets caught in moderation :)
Anon.2
There is also reproductive coercion, when a woman’s partner sabotages her birth control methods. Sadly, not all women have the same amount of agency as a typical corporette — educated, working, and able to support herself and her dependents alone if necessary.
Anonymous
So for people who make this argument- why in the world aren’t you trying to make it illegal for people who get in car accidents to receive medical care or organ donation. If you give an organ to someone who CHOSE to get in a car, knowing the risks associated with crashing, giving them medical attention is taking it away from the innocents who really need it. they should only be getting an organ if no one else who is innocent needs one. Same with cyclists who don’t wear helmets- we can save them if there is nothing else going on, but there should be a law that makes sure that no other live is in jeopardy by giving them medical attention.
Hmm what’s that? The only people we want to punish are sexually active women? OH weird.
Anonymous
+1000. People choose to hike in the backcountry and we rescue them.
thoughtful pro-lifer
I think if we want to have a respectful and kind discussion, then the convention is to call a group by their preferred name. I understand that you feel you are expressing your views by using the term “anti-choice,” but calling a group a name that is clearly offensive isn’t conducive to the discussion and sharing of ideas that I think we would all like to achieve. Just a heads up in case you weren’t aware!
Anonymous
I don’t think dressing up anti-choice rhetoric that ignores the lives of the women impacted as medical reasoning is conducive to a respectful discussion either. Just a heads up
TNT
The next person who says or implies that anyone pro-choice just wants to murder a baby without a second thought, I might just lose it.
There are very, very real reasons to have an abortion; nothing in those videos gives me an indication that I should hand over that decision to a politician or an internet stranger.
anon
I’ve never heard anyone say tha ta pro-choice person wants to murder a baby without a second thought. Never. I’ve heard tons of people say that pro-lifers want to control women’s bodies. I’ve heard it here, I’ve heard it on the news, in articles, in daily conversation. I’ve heard it tons.
anonymous
Oh I definitely have heard variants of that
anon
Let’s talk about the facts: I’ve seen it said on here many times that pro-lifers just want to control women’s bodies. I’ve never seen it said on here that pro-choicers want to murder a baby. Same goes with legit news sources.
Anonymous
OK so facts- youre wrong. It has been said on here many times that it is murder.
Yep
Someone was passing out fliers in my neighborhood about the new Planned Parenthood going up that say, “KILLERS AMONG US,” warning about baby murderers. And the people who protest outside of the Planned Parenthood near my home shout awful things at women going inside (not that any of us know why any particular woman is going inside!)
AM
+1
TNT
Come on, then I don’t believe that you’re truly engaged in the debate on the issue. Absolutely there are prominent people on the anti-choice side who believe that women have abortions for convenience and that PP is just handing them out like candy.
The fact is that you, an anti-abortion person, would like to make my medical choices for me. That is you exerting control over my body. I will not accept that.
Abortion is legal, severe restrictions on it are unconstitutional, and you’re free to disagree strongly with that but don’t try to pretend that you aren’t overreaching into my private life in your effort to stop it.
JJ
Fair enough. As long as you, a pro-abortion person, accept that you are extinguishing a life whenever an abortion occurs.
Yes, I’m willing to say “no abortions” because I don’t believe that life should be extinguished (although I personally believe in early-term abortion in cases of rape). Pro-abortion people just come out on the other side of that balancing test.
TNT
But it seems that you do believe there are situations where life may be extinguished. You are pro-abortion. You said it right there.
I don’t accept that life begins at conception because science doesn’t support it. I don’t accept that every abortion extinguishes a life.
And again, I am PRO CHOICE, not necessarily pro abortion. I am pro “every woman’s ability to decide if she will have an abortion or not without interference from her government.”
You, JJ, and our anon, can choose not to abort because of your beliefs. You can’t choose for me.
tesyaa
How do you justify the rape exception? Isn’t a life a life? It’s certainly not the fetus’s fault that it’s the result of a rape.
JJ
tesyaa – I see it as every time we have s*x, unless there have been permanent medical procedures done, there’s a chance (however slim), that pregnancy can result. Having s*x means accepting that chance and the consequences. Since rape obviously doesn’t involve consent, I can see having an exception for that. I’m uneasy with it and don’t like it, because you’re right, it’s not the fetus’ fault and it’s still killing a human, but in my imaginary world where I create policy, that would be my exception.
tesyaa
You’re basically saying that unless one is willing to carry a pregnancy to term at any time, one should remain celibate. That seems awfully stringent.
JJ
That’s the same as saying that unless you’re willing to die in a car accident, you should never get in the car. Or unless you’re willing to die in a plane crash, you should never get on a plane. We take risks every day and live with the consequences. This consequence is respecting human life.
Anonymous
Go JJ!
anon
JJ- Two points: 1) People are allowed to mitigate consequences, aren’t they? No one is telling people they can’t seek medical treatment for car accidents because broken bones are consequences. 2) If I injure you in a car accident, I am never EVER required to donate my body to you. Why do you think a woman should be required to donate her body to a fetus simply because she had s*x?
Why do you think that both of these rules (which I am sure you agree with) are thrown out the window when it comes to women and pregnancy?
I find it sickening that you look at a child (and motherhood!!!!!) as a consequence a woman has to endure. Entirely sickening.
JJ
And embryology textbooks are fairly clear about when life begins: “A zygote is the beginning of a new human being.” (The Develop Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology. 7th Ed.). “[F]ertilization…is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is formed.” (Human Embryology & Teratology, 3rd Ed.).
Whether you “accept” that or not is your choice. But it’s science.
TNT
What about the woman who took that risk and did the deed and conceived and wanted that baby so much, but it would kill her to bear it. Must she?
TNT
But that fertilized egg is meaningless without about a thousand other steps until it becomes a viable life. Does a fertilized egg that never implants need to be fished out of the toilet? Does a miscarriage at three weeks need to be prosecuted? When does it start to matter? Four cells? Ten cells? A thousand? Are you actually saying one or two?
When does personhood attach? When are those cells no longer mine, and instead my child’s?
And regardless of any of your answers to any of those above questions, what on god’s green earth gives you the right to decide MY answers to those questions?
Anonymous
I’m always puzzled by those that think fertilization should be point where an embryo is a legally protected person. Are they as concerned about the millions of embryos that are discarded as a matter of course in fertility treatments as they are with the woman trying to be responsible by taking a morning after pill or using an IUD?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2255107/1-7-million-embryos-created-IVF-thrown-away-just-7-cent-lead-pregnancy.html
Funny how no one is protesting fertility clinics.
Cimorene
And textbooks are written by humans, who have biases. “Science” doesn’t write itself.
anon
Ha, really? Go one to some of the “pro-life” websites, anywhere on the internet. Open your eyes, look around you. “Pro-life” ilk say this sort of nonsense all. the. time.
Anon
Even before I saw the comments posted before mine I planned to add that I’ve heard pro-choice people referred to as “pro-abortion”, which is simply not the same thing and certainly implies a cavalier attitude toward life in general. I am pro-choice; I am not a fan of abortion.
I am a fan of accurate s*x education, of birth control, and of not legislating control over women’s bodies. A government that can force you to carry to term is also, from what I can tell, one that can also force you to abort; I favor leaving the government out of this.
Anonymous
Have you ever walked by a planned parenthood or seen pro life people in a city? They scream “Baby murderer!” at the women walking in. And in the city they shoved a graphic picture in my face and asked me if I had ever murdered a baby. Look you can hold whatever belief you want, but the pro life side, full stop, has a lot of lunatics in it. They’ve killed doctors!
This is not an even sided debate where both sides have equal arguments. One wants to reach way over the civil liberties line and make decisions for you.
anonymous
Can we all just agree that there are very valid reasons to take either position on this subject? This seems like such an obvious solution.
Anon
There are reasons but that doesn’t make them all valid.
Anonymous
Agreed. And stop rehashing it like every week. I doubt anyone is going to change anyone’s mind on an internet forum.
Anonymous
Well because I don’t agree that there is a valid reason to be on the prolife side. If you, personally, believe its taking a life, then don’t have one. But only one side is trying to control what the other side does. To take that to an extreme- what if we lived in a world where pro choice people were allowed to decide whether to abort your baby or not, based on the health of the baby, your financial stability, and your ability to raise the child after an interview process. Can you imagine? Someone else getting to decide what happens to your body, and your baby?? Our society allows for multiple exceptions to taking a life- self defense, legal execution, etc. This is also one. It must be legal, it should be infrequent.
Anonymous
Nah. Pro lifers hate women, live in a fantasy land, view babies as a punishment for sex, and think their morals control my body. I’m not up for playing nice.
Salli
I think I can agree that there are valid reasons to take both sides if we can also agree that any one person’s opinion shouldn’t affect any other person’s actions.
Anonymous
Right. And that’s literally what pro-choice means. You don’t like abortions so you’re not getting one? Snaps for you. You think I shouldn’t either? Nah. I’m not playing nice.
Salli
Yep – I was (clumsily) agreeing with you!
SoCalAtty
RIGHT! It isn’t the opinion I have a problem with. It’s the attempt to for me to live by your opinion of what I should be doing with my body. Not ok. There are plenty of reasons to have an opinion, but let’s not start forcing others to abide by it.
Cimorene
“Pro lifers hate women, live in a fantasy land, view babies as a punishment for sex, and think their morals control my body. I’m not up for playing nice.” This plus the whole issue of forcing women to have babies and then not providing any services to ensure those women and babies can enjoy healthy, productive lives pretty much sum it up.
Anonymous
“Pro lifers hate women, live in a fantasy land, view babies as a punishment for sex, and think their morals control my body. I’m not up for playing nice.” This plus the whole issue of forcing women to have babies and then not providing any services to ensure those women and babies can enjoy healthy, productive lives pretty much sum it up.
Katie
This is flat out not true.
anyanony
+1 and why do we have to discuss this here weekly.
Anonymous
Because some rando saw a video and decided this is how she wanted to spend her afternoon?
AN
So I’m not American and don’t live in the U.S., but where I live, everyone has the right to make their own choice, whatever that is. And we just don’t get why that isn’t possible in the US without all this mass hysteria every four years.
Anonymous
Some of us in the US also don’t understand why there has to be mass hysteria every 4 years. ;)
Anon
But you do want to control women’s bodies. Nobody is saying you get off on controlling women’s bodies, but you want to force a woman to carry a pregnancy to term thus controlling her body. It is the literal truth.
I know you think it’s justifiable to control a woman’s body under these circumstances, but that’s different.
SuziStockbroker
I think you need to recognize however, that a significant percentage of the people who are “pro life” actually DO just want to control women and their bodies.
I am pro-choice, although I don’t think I could ever have an abortion myself. I think it is important to remember that most pro-choice people are generally not “pro-abortion”.
I have very dear friends that are “pro-life” for religious reasons, but also do care very deeply about the babies that might result from much-less-than-ideal circumstances. I don’t get that sense from, for example, many of your Republican candidates.
SuziStockbroker
But definitely, all “pro-lifers” should not be painted with the same brush, and I agree there are very valid reasons to be “pro-life” and pro-choice.
anon
“significant” – How do you know? How do you know these people’s motives? Is it impossible that they would be uncomfortable with cutting through a baby’s face to get to his brain?
I obviously get that this is a super hard issue. I see the arguments on your side. I just get sick of people saying, yeah, you may say it’s about the baby, but I know it’s *really* because you don’t like women.
TNT
I think what they’re saying is not that you don’t “like” women, or that your “dislike” for a woman is in place of a pretended concern for the as-yet unviable fetus inside her.
What I am saying is that you are electing to respect that as-yet unviable fetus more than the woman, for a reason that cannot be reasonably articulated without in some way denigrating that woman’s right to make a choice for herself.
TNT
(Boy I wish we still had an edit function)
I think it also stems from a refusal on most pro-life people’s part to admit that, if it is*not* about exerting control over another woman’s body, then pro-life and pro-choice beliefs are not mutually exclusive.
If you are pro-life because you would not ever be comfortable aborting your own pregnancy because of videos you have seen or things you have read or your god or your doctor or whatever, but you do not wish to restrict another person’s ability to make that choice for themselves, then SURPRISE – you are pro-choice.
Anonymous
Perhaps people choose to respect the fetus more because the fetus had no control over being conceived. The pregnant woman, again, barring cases of rape, had every opportunity to woman up and take responsibility for her own fertility. It really amazes me that people can claim they’re espousing the “feminist” view when what they’re asking for is the right to terminate a life because they aren’t capable of making decisions based on consequences and then accepting those consequences.
tesyaa
Oh, goodness. Birth control fails. People who are vehemently pro-life often support exceptions for rape (as a commenter does, above) or for fetuses with significant abnormalities.
By saying that someone should “woman up”, you’re basically saying that a woman should be punished for not being careful enough with BC (no matter how careful she was), or, help me, for wanting s3x too badly.
TNT
I responded to you on this point above. There are so many circumstances in which people have abortions that are not at all related to a failure to take charge of one’s own fertility. And, as I mentioned above, there are large populations of women in this country who are not provided “every opportunity” to handle that. Attempts to restrict s*x ed, contraception insurance coverage, counseling, Planned Parenthood – that list is long and it is real.
Also, this doesn’t really have anything to do with feminism, so I don’t know why you felt the need to break out the scare quotes there.
Anonymous
Perhaps people respect the fetus more because it’s socially acceptable to hate and control women because of a millennia of the patriarchy.
anon
Also, the statement that Republican candidates don’t care about babies is awesome. Such broad strokes. And such attacks.
Did you know that Republicans actually donate more to charity than Democrats? They even give more blood. Perhaps you’re misunderstanding our position.
Anonymous
Nah. I get it. Pro-life republicans respect and value lots of people. Sexually active women who don’t want kids just aren’t a favored group.
Anon
+1 to Anonymous at 5:02pm
anon
I’m a pro-life Republican who believes in lots of birth control, who believes adoption should be subsidized more heavily, who volunteers at a women’s shelter, who supports the Christian Women’s Job Corps that trains women in a new vocation to get on their feet, who gives financially to a local charter school that has made great inroads with sending at risk kids to college.
Just FYI.
anon
Edited to add:
I’m not sure how that is not supporting sexually active women who don’t want kids.
And I know lots of other very pro-life, very Republican people who believe the same as I do and who put their money where their mouths are.
Anonymous
+10000
Katie
Adopted any kids yet? Because if every viable pregnancy were carried to term, we’d have an immense glut of children that would need to be adopted to add on to the many children who already need a home.
Katie
… and how about a living wage for all, mandated paid maternity leave, and universal healthcare to shoulder the burden of carrying a pregnancy and a subsequent child. Still interested? Helping a few women find jobs is commendable, but isn’t even a drop in the bucket (and charities can never hope to fill the void that good government policy would be able to cover!).
I
Right because babies = charity. What? Can you quantify these charities? Are they giving to children’s charities?
This statement makes no sense. And also candidates vs supporters are not the same thing…
Candidates will say anything! What the hell are you even talking about?
bridget
“I think you need to recognize however, that a significant percentage of the people who are “pro life” actually DO just want to control women and their bodies.”
Except they don’t. And even if they did, they are still right that abortion is barbaric and sick.
Anonymous
There are plenty of things that are legal that some people find barbaric and sick. For me, taking a pill is not one of them. For you it is, which is your right. And you never, ever have to get one.
DisenchantedinDC
Except… They do. That is inherently what this is about. Person A wants to tell Person B what choices they should and shouldn’t make with their body. A fetus at 10 weeks is not an independently viable human. I personally believe that children should only be brought in to families that want and adore them, not carried by women who resent their existence.
I also believe that in my ideal world there will be no abortions. Because everybody will be educated on and have access to appropriate birth control. But ironically the second part of my equation kind of goes against the policy of many right wingers who are against abortion/pro-life.
padi
This. X1000
I was pro-life until I read the opinion in Roe v Wade. Making abortion illegal is all about controlling women and their choices.
When men can carry a fetus to term, we can start talking about accepting the risk of carrying a pregnancy to term for every sex act.
Yep
This. It seems like a lot of the anti-choice crowd is just so infuriated that women would dare to have sex without wanting to “deal with the consequences”…. but they’re not at all interested in equipping women to deal with the consequences either. Anti birth control, anti s3x education, anti family-friendly leave policies, anti living wage… They’re pro birth at best. It’s hard not to read that stance as a desire to punish sl*ts with childbirth and babies, rather than a genuine concern for life.
I
I so so agree with this. I usually skip these threads. I’m pro-choice, but like so many others on this site, I would have the child if I got pregnant (I think), even though I’m single. But it would be a hardship. On the other hand, I have a loving family and a support system who would all step in to help and we would adore that baby.
But no child should be brought into this world without love. And no woman should be forced to give birth. And rape shouldn’t be the only exception. Let’s face it. Teenage girls and women in abusive relationships are pressured to have sex. And, yes, in an ideal world this wouldn’t happen, but it does.
It may not technically be rape, but I really don’t think it’s fully consensual. And I sure don’t think that a child can flourish in an environment like that.
But whatever the situation, I don’t think anyone can tell another person what to do. Because it’s not just a woman’s body, it’s her life. A good friend of mine in college got an abortion and she agonized over it…
Anonymous
You’re sick Bridget. Sick and barbaric. They’re not babies. They’re fetuses. Deal.
Bewitched
If they don’t want to control women, why are they against family planning? Why do they want to de-fund Planned Parenthood, even though by law, PP federal dollars cannot be used for abortion? Why do they disagree with Colorado expanding long term contraception to teenagers, even though it was shown that LTC reduced pregnancies (and, by definition, some abortions) by over 30%? Uggh, don’t even get me STARTED!
CA Admin
The best way to reduce pregnancy? Provide free and easily accessible contraception. I guess that’s why all those anti-choicers are trying to beef up Planned Parenthood’s budget. Oh wait…
It’s about controlling women’s bodies and making sure that there’s shame and consequences after s3x. Nothing more.
Anonymous
You do realize that money is fungible and can just be shuffled around so that technically the exact federal dollars are not spent on abortion? I’m in favor of free contraception but I don’t think it should come from the same place that provides abortions.
TNT
Why shouldn’t abortions and contraception come from the same place?
Title X
Federal funding for family planning services (most of which is through Title X) isn’t fungible because it’s paid through reimbursements for specific services (family planning services). In fact, those reimbursements don’t even cover the full costs of the family planning treatments/services and clinics tend to lose money on those services. So no, Title X funding isn’t subsidizing abortion — clinics that get Title X are typically losing money to be able to provide services to women who can’t afford them and only get partial reimbursement from the federal government.
anon
Hahahaha no they don’t establish any such thing. You really think the fact that something squicky and gross is enough reason to take away a woman’s bodily autonomy? Grow up.
Some dissection is ugly. Don’t become a doctor if you can’t stomach it.
JJ- you obviously support abortion restrictions as a means to control women’s bodies as you are ok with abortions in the case of rape. If you really believed it was murder of a human person, you wouldn’t, you hypocrite. Why does a rape baby deserve to die, hmm? Keep your nose out of my medical choices.
Meow
I am refraining from poking at all the logical fallacies in these anti-choice blurbs. Jeez you are supposed to be educated women but these are not coherent or logically viable. “Feel” and “barbaric” and “believe” do not a good argument make.
Pretty Primadonna
*slow claps*
Anonymous
And talking like Yoda does not a good argument make. And insulting someone’s intelligence does not a good argument make. And saying “I have all of these great arguments that I’m not going to make but trust me they are really good” does not a good argument make.
This is exactly the kind of nonsense that I meant by my post—telling me I want to control women’s bodies, telling me I am uneducated.
TNT
Do you see, though, above, where JJ is proving my point as well? JJ’s refused to acknowledge the point that there are abortions that exist outside of her idea of a woman who just decided not to prevent it and has concluded that it’s inconvenient to have a child at this time so she’ll just dally off to the abortionplex to have one.
And you’ve yet to acknowledge that, via your concern for the unviable fetus inside another person, you desire to dictate that person’s actions. You do. That is control. Over a body that is not yours.
Anonymous
Right. I get it, you think the fetus is the most important thing ever. Therefore you want to control women’s bodies because they are less important.
JJ
It’s really easy to say I “refused” to do something when I’m working and can’t respond immediately. FFS. The original anon (I assume) and I have been nothing but respectful and polite, whereas there is a lot of name-calling on the other side of this argument. The logical fallacies and assumptions are flying fast and furious.
I’m honestly conflicted about abortion when the mother will die in childbirth. Suggesting that pro-life people would prosecute someone for having a miscarriage at 3 weeks is ridiculous and nothing more than reductio absurdum.
Things that have immediately been assumed about me (in this thread alone) because I am pro-life: I am against s*x ed, I am a Republican, I am against women, I am not intelligent, I am against access to birth control, I am against a living wage, I am against family-friendly leave policies (what?), all I want to do is control women, I’m a subject of the patriarchy, and and I’m against social services. Maybe it’s time to re-examine which side is prone to hysterics.
Anonymous
Maybe it’s time to realize you hate women?
TNT
Hey man we’re all busy. I haven’t called anyone any names and I don’t think I’ve been impolite. I didn’t call you stupid or a Republican.
Note also, I didn’t make any of those assumptions about you. I pointed out that some of the arguments made here kind of ignore the real problems in this country with respect to access, education, and reproductive rights. The point I was making is that *those* assumptions like “every woman knows how to prevent pregnancy, and if she’s not pregnant it’s because she’s irresponsible” are doing a serious disservice to the women in this country who do not have that option.
JJ
TNT – I wasn’t referring specifically to you and I apologize if it came across that way.
annoyed
“The original anon (I assume) and I have been nothing but respectful and polite, whereas there is a lot of name-calling on the other side of this argument.”
False. It is not polite to tell me that you *believe I should be forced to gestate against my will* (that’s slavery, lady) and that you think that I *can’t have an abortion to save my own life* (oh, you’re “conflicted.” How f’ing generous of you to say you’re conflicted over whether women should be able to save their own f’ing lives! Yeah, people get mad when you tell them they should be forced to gestate and DIE for fetuses. You are not polite. You are not respectful. You are hateful and terrible. These are REAL women’s lives you are flippantly disregarding.
“Suggesting that pro-life people would prosecute someone for having a miscarriage at 3 weeks is ridiculous and nothing more than reductio absurdum.”
Why? Shouldn’t it at least be investigated? What if she “did something” to cause it, like drink too much caffeine? I mean, you think women should be forced to die for a fetus so how is this a stretch?
“Things that have immediately been assumed about me (in this thread alone) because I am pro-life: I am against s*x ed, I am a Republican, I am against women, I am not intelligent, I am against access to birth control, I am against a living wage, I am against family-friendly leave policies (what?), all I want to do is control women, I’m a subject of the patriarchy, and and I’m against social services.”
These assertions were made about anti-choicers in general. It isn’t all about you, honey.
“Maybe it’s time to re-examine which side is prone to hysterics.”
Tell me that I should be enslaved and forced to gestate and am not allowed to defend my own life and yeah, I’m going to get upset. Don’t blame the victim when you come in here spouting this hateful nonsense and say, ‘oh we’ll you’re just hysterical.’ It’s a shaming technique. Knock it off.
And it was the first anon anti-choicer who came here slobbering and bawling about cutting a fetus’s face open, which she should very well know has nothing to do with the practice of abortion and everything to do with fetal donation. Yeah, surgery is nasty. Boo f’ing hoo. Eye roll.
JJ
Man, sometimes I miss that Edit button. Following up to say that, if you filter out the noise, this site has always had respectful discussions about a lot of hot-button issues. If you, anon, want to believe that I’m self-hating woman, go for it. If you don’t understand that it’s possible to disagree without impugning people with horrible motives, that’s fine.
Katie
“I’m honestly conflicted about abortion when the mother will die in childbirth”
W T F!!!!!! WHAT?! And you think this isn’t about women’s autonomy? Imagine a fully-realized adult, pregnant, with a full life– career, parents, partner, family, friends, interests. Now think about what you just said. You’re CONFLICTED over whether she or her unborn child should take precedence?
How is this even a debate? If someone who is “pro-life” isn’t even sure if this particular instance should be legal, how could we ever come to a definition of when abortion is “unacceptable”?
Abortion is legal. Leave medical decisions to medical professionals.
Anonymous
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/04/01/indiana-woman-jailed-for-feticide-its-never-happened-before/
so one we are prosecuting women for having miscarriages. whether you buy her story or not, it sets up a TERRIFYING precedent.
the fact that you are conflicted about saving a woman’s life who wants to live- but you would condemn her to death for being sexually active really says everything about your argument. You cannot hold that opinion and be a feminist.
Anonx
I am horrified to know that a grown, educated woman is conflicted about abortion when mother’s life is in danger. Are you also conflicted about the law where killing some one in self-defense is allowed? What would you do if some one tries to kills you or your husband or your children? How is aborting a fetus to save mother’s life different from any action taken to defend one’s life? Oh..may be you think a pregnant woman’s life is the least valuable, less valuable than a non-viable fetus.
Anonymous
Exactly!
CA Admin
I am not an incubator and we don’t allow forced tissue donation in this country.
If a fetus can survive on its own, then fine, but you don’t have the right to force me to donate my blood/body for 9 months to support another person. If my sister were dying and I could do a kidney transplant to save her, should the government force me to do that transplant? What if I hate her? What if the surgery could kill me?
Pregnancy and birth are statistically far more dangerous for women than abortion.
You don’t get to tell me that I have to endure forced tissue donation and a risky procedure against my will, even if it will save another person. That’s not how this works. A man wouldn’t be forced to donate blood every day for 9 months to save his child, why should a woman? In no other circumstances would we allow the government to dictate such a thing.
Anonymous
Yup. Pro-life is controlling women’s bodies. I don’t even get this argument. Pro-life people WANT to control women’s bodies to protect fetuses. That’s literally the platform. Idk why you’d even pretend that you can be pro-life without that control.
anon
As someone in the middle of a very wanted — but very grueling — pregnancy right now, I cannot imagine being forced to endure this if I did not have the desire and the ability to care for the child at the end (or to place the child for adoption).
Anonymous
I must’ve missed the part where someone held a gun to your head and clamped your legs open. Sex is fun. We all know that. But you are clearly educated enough to use birth control reliably, so if you can’t figure out the B-PL implications of sex and contraception, you may want to go back to first year contracts.
Oh, and despite the ignorant claims above, many pro-life individuals do support easy access to birth control and program’s such as Colorado’s–you’re just struggling to grasp that disagreeing with forcing someone else to pay for X doesn’t mean that one disagrees with X period.
Anonymous
Hi you suck! Did you know that humans are fallible and that birth control is too. Even when you try super duper hard? Do you get that many women live in cultures where they are not empowered enough to insist on birth control right here in the US? Do you understand that punishing people for doing something natural with a life time unwanted commitment is just plain torture? Do you realize that putting the burden on women to flippantly clamp their legs together is hateful and dismissive? Did you perhaps get lost on your way to a support josh DUGGER rally?
Wildkitten
“Hi you suck!” x100000
TNT
Sorry where is the part where you’re forced to pay for my birth control or abortion?
annoyed
Not sure why my multiple comments on this thread haven’t been posted….
Come on, you s*x negative weirdo. Are you REALLY going to look me in the eye (oh hey, its the internet so you don’t have to, coward) and tell me that I am relegated to a life of celibacy, and all the attendant ills that that entails (like, um, never having a life partner) because YOU think I should be forced to bear any child I become pregnant with. No. Full stop. F. You.
I assume you don’t give a free pass to women whose contraception failed, do you?
Let me be clear: No one is “clamping my legs open” but yeah, not having s*x for my entire life is pretty much a non-option.
Your use of the term “clamp your legs open” (WTF is the matter with you?) just goes a long way to show your concern is about the s!utty s!uts having the s*x and needing to face the consequences. Why do “pro-lifers” always describe women in s*xually explicit positions? And we’re supposed to think you’re not obsessed with s*x.
Anon.2
After moving to a more pro-life region, I developed a theory. People in those social environments know what the expectations are as to how their lives should go. If you agree and remain on the path, you get tons of support. If you fall off for any reason, then you’re on the outs. The idea that someone does not marry their high school or college sweetheart does not compute. The concept that some people never want children but also do not want to be celibate does not occur. The idea that birth control fails or that a fetus might not be viable is absent. The list goes on.
CA Admin
See? It’s all about consequences to you people. It’s not about the “baby”, it’s about making sure that the women who had s3x are punished. Thanks for proving the point.
Forcing someone to carry a pregnancy to term (no matter what they chose previously) is forcing them to donate tissue to another human being. That is immoral and illegal. End of story.
Anonymous
Yes just yes
Ew.
Wow, this attitude is so gross, and I don’t think you belong here, on a board of educated and respectful women, since you’ve displayed neither of those characteristics.
Signed, an open-legged, pro-choice, unashamed S L U T (despite your efforts)
Colorado IUD programs
Actually, no. Republicans are trying to defund the extremely successful IUD program in Colorado, despite the fact that it resulted in a 40% drop in unintended pregnancies. Gee, I wonder if this is about women having s*x? http://thinkprogress.org/health/2015/04/30/3653043/colorado-iud-funding/
Wading into the abyss
Don’t forget that a lot of this debate is over whether aborted fetus remnants is going to medical research or not. I for one don’t care. My reason for not caring has nothing to do with being pro life or pro choice. I believe that once you are dead, it doesn’t matter one iota what happens to your body. I think there are religious people that believe this because they believe the soul goes on and doesn’t need the body. There are atheists that believe this because they believe there is no afterlife. If I’m dead, you can take every piece of me and do what you want with me. If it is cheaper to get me somewhere in a suitcase than in a casket, lop off my arms and legs. I don’t care. So regardless if abortion is right or wrong (I’m personally pro-choice) I really don’t care what they do with whatever is leftover. I also know part of the issue whether they are selling it instead of donating it. I also don’t care about that and personally think we should solve the problem with low organ donation by allowing families to be compensated for donating their deceased’s organs.
JJ
My biggest problem with the PP videos was when they sawed through a living baby’s head to harvest the brain, but that’s just me.
Anonymous
Yeah that’s, just, I can’t even with you. Learn medicine.
Anonymous
Shoot. My husband is pro-life and a really accomplished doctor. I guess I will have to tell him he needs to learn medicine too.
Anonymous
Yeah I’d appreciate that! It’d be nice to know that every doctor is ready willing and able to perform life saving easy medical treatment on me.
Anonymous
You mean the video that was shown to have been edited. Ugh.
Stillborn photo
You know that the fetus that was shown in that specific video was not an aborted fetus at all? That it was a stillborn and that the photo was used without the mother’s permission? Can you imagine how depraved you have to be to exploit someone who has had a loss like that just to manipulate public opinion? http://thinkprogress.org/health/2015/08/20/3693340/planned-parenthood-video-photos/
Gee, I wonder what else the guys who made these videos are lying about?
TBK
I’m disappointed this conversation went the way it did. Most places on the Internet, yeah, personal attacks and name-calling. Here? Usually people are willing to engage, even on difficult topics, in real debate (and some people have). I do think Clinton’s “safe, legal, and rare” is the best approach. Lots of s*x education, easy access to bc (including cheap IUDs and implants), plus an unemployment-like tax that can be used to provide compensation for women on maternity leave by spreading the cost among all employers (which would be fair because everyone benefits from additional people being born, and would not result in employers hiring fewer young women as a way of avoiding paying benefits).
Life and health of the mother, always. Always. If the baby has a serious defect that would mean it would die before birth or shortly after? Yes.
Otherwise, I’m for a cut-off based on scientific evidence. Maybe that’s 12 weeks. Maybe that’s earlier. I do not believe that pro-life means anti-woman. I find that position to be insulting. There are plenty of people of good heart who are pro-life. It’s not about controlling women’s bodies. It’s a hard, hard, hard issue because we really do have two living entities who are fused together for a period of time. Minimum viability is generally around 24 weeks, but mortality is around 50% and the baby has a high risk of lifelong severe disabilities. So even though the fetus could technically be separated from the woman and be viable, I wouldn’t support forced removal of the fetus at that time. But a week after implantation? That’s still a clump of cells. When does the clump become a baby? I don’t know. Sometime between 1 week and 24. Probably sometime before 20 weeks.
No exceptions for rape. I don’t get that exception either. A baby isn’t a punishment for s*x. It’s a person. If a child is raped and conceives and can’t get access to an abortion before 22 weeks, that’s a tragedy. It’s awful. But that doesn’t mean it’s now okay to harm the fetus and pile harm on top of harm.
It’s a hard issue. Saying all pro-lifers just want to control women’s bodies is disingenuous and insulting. It’s equally insulting and disingenuous to dismiss women who want abortions because a baby “isn’t convenient.” Early abortion because of inconvenience is totally 100% okay with me. Late abortion because of dire but not life-threatening circumstances is not okay with me. But ultimately no one really really knows. There’s no one answer as to when a person becomes a person. And if you say that it’s not a person at X date, are you invalidating the woman who lost her baby at that date and feels like it truly was a death? But if it is a person, is a miscarriage then something that requires a criminal investigation? Also, no matter when it’s done, it’s a medical procedure and medical procedures are gory and, to non-medical people, disturbing. That’s one of the reasons the PP videos have riled people up — they’re just gruesome in part because medicine is gruesome.
I think there are people of good faith on both sides.
annoyed
Maybe the conversation wouldn’t have gone this way if OP didn’t come in here simpering about what are *obviously* propaganda pieces. Come ON use some critical thinking skills, people. Clearly, not an actual attempt to start a dialog or engage; rather an attempt to rile people up by sobbing about sawing baby faces. Good grief.
anon
Thanks, TNT. I really respect your opinion and the fact that you respect my opinion. There are points I could disagree with, but I won’t because my real point in starting this thread was not to debate the merits of abortion but to point out that there are good reasons to be pro-life and it’s not because you hate women or want to control their bodies.
I also am really disappointed in the name calling.
Anonymous
Hahahahahahah. Yeah sure sweetie. Go ahead. Post deliberately inflammatory stuff and then act shocked.
I
This is TBK, not the TNT from above
Anonymous
And yet no one has named one reason that is not related to controlling womens body. Honestly read my example above- what if the debate was whether “pro abortion” people could force you to have an abortion. Wouldn’t it make you absolutely sick, absolutely horrified, to live in a world where people would flippantly say well you shouldn’t have got pregnant if you weren’t prepared to abort it. You knew it was a risk that you might lose your job while you were pregnant and be forced to abort. Next time think about that before you get pregnant.
Look we live in a society that is not perfect. By saying that you want abortion legally banned except for a rape exception, means you want to live in a society where women will have to have a trial to prove they were raped before they are allowed to stop being pregnant. You are a saying a woman who wanted to get pregnant and was trying to get pregnant with her husband can’t medically stop the pregnancy if 2 weeks into pregnancy, she hits her head and loses all her memories. Abortions are not great- they aren’t something anyone wants to happen. But just like we are legally allowed to amputate a limb, to undergo chemotherapy, to shoot an intruder in our home that threatens our life, to do things like have affairs or other questionably moral but legal things, abortion has to be legal in this country. The pro life side has to give this up, and direct their efforts to orphanages and women’s shelters and women’s issues. The more you support women and help them gain agency and independence, the more likely they are going to be willing and able to have a child.
Not one person here has presented a compelling argument against its legality. Some of you are lawyers- you have to think of how anti abortion bans would be regulated and the effect it has on society. In a perfect world, no one would have to have one. In a perfect world no one would have to be poor or sick or anything bad thing. But in the real world, we have to keep abortions legal. The effect banning them would have would be a terrible drain on society. More unwanted children, more abused children, more neglected children. More women dying, taking their own lives or dying in the hospital. If you believe in the strength, the power, and the love of women you have to let them do this legally. Women have had to do this for the beginning of time, and although its distasteful, immoral to some, its an important part of our ability to be full fledged human beings. You have to realize that this is a campaign against women, and it breaks my heart to see women participating in it.
NYtoCO
I wasn’t here for most of this conversation but… thank you for this. Very important and well said.
Anonx
Yes…It makes me sick that educated women on this forum want a law banning abortions. They are willing to take the rights of other women who may not be as privileged. Millions of women have died due to pregnancy related complications by not having access to timely and safe abortions. I truly hope these women get into an incredibly difficult situation where they have to get an abortion themselves. At least that can help them to become more empathetic human beings.
Anonymous
I struggle with the underlying assumption of your argument that because pro-life people are opposed to abortion they are trying to control women and are therefore anti-women. We live in a society of laws, many of which regulate personal choice and freedoms. I don’t say this as a criticism of your position, simply that this argument strikes me as particularly ineffective.
anonono
Laws that regulate personal choice and freedom only do so insofar as your personal choice and freedom infringes on someone else’s well-being (e.g., your freedom ends where my nose begins). In the case of abortion, restrictions on abortion generally are valuing the life of the fetus over the life and choices of the woman who is pregnant and supporting this fetus with her very blood and organs. I mean, it’s basically a parasite sucking the life out of the woman (literally, the reason they recommend that women wait at least 18 months between pregnancies is because they leach the nutrients from your body, and you need time to replenish.) I don’t know if you’ve ever been pregnant before, but if someone made me do that as punishment for having sex, and knowing I would end up with a child I hadn’t wanted and didn’t know how I would support, I would probably kill myself, it was that rough for me. Making babies a consequence of having non-procreative sex is not celebrating life, it’s making it a punishment. There is no other area where we could ever legally force someone to literally provide their own organs for someone else’s survival. I think legally there just isn’t any way to consider a fetus as a person before it is born, because it cannot survive on its own, therefor the life of the mother has to take precedence.
Anonymous
When you take a position that can put my life at risk by removing my access to a medical procedure I’m not prepared to be nice.
Anonymous
No, they don’t. The videos demonstrate the ability to manipulate the emotions of well meaning but ignorant people.
MollySolverson
Book recs needed for my commute, please! I take advantage of this time to indulge in lighter books I can zip through pretty quickly. Most recent reads, all of which I enjoyed, were Girl on the Train, Luckiest Girl Alive, Big Little Lies, and The Royal We. Just started the Nightingale but looking ahead to what’s next. Any suggestions?
mascot
A Sudden Light, The Circle
AIMS
I started reading the Magicians and am enjoying it. Kind of like a Harry Potter for grown ups.
DisenchantedinDC
Just read Gillian Flynn’s other books and liked them. Dark Places and Sharp Objects.
CountC
I liked them better than Gone Girl!
If you are interested in non-fic, pick up Tina Fey and Mindy Kaling’s books. Fun and easy reading. I also just borrowed Kid President’s book for fun – haven’t started it yet, but I am looking forward to it!
anon
The Night Circus
Anonymous
+1. It is mesmerizing.
BeesKnees
I commute for work and love audiobooks. These would also be great regular reads as well: ” The Cuckoo’s Calling” and “The SilkWorm” “The Art of Fielding” and “All the Light We Cannot See”
Anonymous
Anything by Tana French.
I
Try Unbecoming by Rebecca Scherm
CKB
Where’d You Go Bernadette is enjoyable. I’ve also liked all the Rainbow Rowell books I’ve read.
MollySolverson
Thanks, all! Lots of good stuff here.
AIMS
I want to paint our bedroom walls myself. I’ve tried painting once before with not great results but am considering trying again. Does Home Depot or something similar have classes or workshops on this sort of thing? Or maybe some kind of online tutorial?
Someone in the industry
What turned out not great? If you explain what didn’t work well, I can try to explain how to mitigate that.
If you google “tips for painting” you will get a ton of recommendations, from basic to “this is how professional painters do XYZ”
My main tips are:
-plan to spend time prepping. Patch and sand holes, then prime them, then paint. Consider taking the time to actually prime – it doesn’t matter what the label says “paint and primer in one” isn’t necessarily better then paint +primer
-Don’t go cheap on your roller. You don’t need the most expensive one, but don’t spend a ton on paint and then get the cheapest roller available at Walmart – it will show.
-Don’t be the first customer to get your paint tinted that morning. I can’t go into any more details, just trust me that it’s not recommended
-Pick a color that is made for the paint you are buying. Can you take a Ben Moore paint chip to Home Depot and ask them to computer match it? Technically, yes. Will it be a great match? Maybe. But probably less good than picking a chip off the rack
-Consider what you are painting as to what sheen you pick. Flat is a better choice if your walls are rough (old plaster, etc) but it will probably burnish (get shiny) if it gets rubbed up against, like carrying furniture up a stairwell. Alternately, a satin will be shinier so it will show more of the surface imperfections (like if you don’t do such a great job patching), but it will probably clean up better because it won’t get shiny spots.
AIMS
I think we were just short on time and impatient. We didn’t prime. We only did one coat. It took longer than I expected and was more tiring than I thought and I don’t think I was prepared for that. Also, I bought nice paint but cheap tools (thinking I was only going to use everything once) and I think that may have made the task harder.
My goal now is much less ambitious. I am moving furniture around and haven’t painted since we moved in and I just want to paint the walls a basic clean white to freshen everything up so it looks a bit neater. I was going to hire someone but all the estimates are more than I’d like to spend because we’re not going to be staying in place for that long and it doesn’t seem worth it.
Meg Murry
Is your trim wood or painted? Honestly, our house looked so much cleaner and neater with just a fresh coat of high gloss white paint on the trim – the previous owners had used a dingy, not glossy off white and just that pop of white made it look like we repainted when we hadn’t – just the trim.
Are your walls white right now? If your house isn’t a super modern style, plain white walls can look harsh and institutional, whereas a light silvery grey or light beige looks much warmer
AIMS
We have years and years of bad paint jobs on our walls so I think they need a lot of work but not in a position to do that now (renting, don’t anticipate staying long enough). I’d let it go altogether but once I rearrange the furniture there will be glaring defects and a clean coat of paint would at least make thing look a little more uniform.
I agree with you on the institutional problem – it’s why we tried to unsuccessfully paint in the first place, our place was painted an ugly stark white, but the “creamy white” we tried to repaint with just ended up looking dingy.
Coach Laura
Try “atrium white” by Benjamin Moore. Used it in multiple homes over 20 years never dingy.
Anon
I am in the process of painting 90% of my house myself. I had taped all my edges and was using a fancy edging tool was still having bleeding when my neighbor came over and mentioned that I needed to get a stiff edge brush and just carefully paint the edges. If you have moulding, any accidents can be wiped off with a wet paper towel. This saved me a TON of time and looked significantly better.
Anonymous
2nd this recommendation
CountC
I didn’t have a problem with where I taped outside of the fact that I was more laissez fair with my brush strokes in those areas because I felt safe by way of tape. That resulted in more oopses than in the areas where I got lazy, didn’t tape, and used a small angled brush to free-hand the edges.
Anonymous
Over the years I’ve fought many a battle with painters tape not sealing on textured walls! Then, a contractor gave me a great tip. To get PERFECT edges, he buys paintable caulk and spreads a very, very thin smear over the tape using a finger. Then paint your edges and pull up the tape, the caulk will split, leaving a perfect edge.
I tried this while helping a friend paint a feature wall in her nursery, it worked very well! Only issue I had was determining when the caulk was dry enough to actually paint, but still wet enough to pull off without all of the caulk coming off the wall as well. I also think my smear was too thick, you only need a really thin film to create that barrier so nothing oozes under the tape.
I’m going to try this again, for sure, next time I paint.
Painted the whole house
We took a free class on painting at Lowe’s.
I find it neater to tape than to cut in by hand. But you have to be very careful to apply the tape in exactly the right place, press it down very firmly, and remove it while the paint is still wet.
Anonymous
Also, Frog Tape is definitely worth it. It’s much better than the 3M blue tape, or any other generic brand.
Mpls
I think the trick is to do both. Tape, but paint carefully near the tape. When placing tape, run your fingernail to get a good seal, but cut in carefully and don’t slop the paint on at the tape point. It helps to avoid seepage.
Anonymous
Aren’t you pregnant? Paint has lots of toxic fumes. The people we hired to paint our nursery wouldn’t even let me be in the house while they were doing it.
AIMS
I am. But we have huge windows on two of our four walls and I think I will fine if I open all the windows and don’t spend the night in the bedroom while paint is drying. I can’t imagine that I’d be the first pregnant woman to go near paint. What about all those cheese lifetime movies with the mom to be in overalls painting the nursery yellow before hiring the evil nanny that kills her whole family?
But good point to double check with my doctor.
Anon
You can also buy paint that is low-VOC so that it doesn’t contain as many of the toxic fumes – it’s what I used when I was pregnant and we repainted most of the house.
Moonstone
I love this response so much.
Anon
Also pregnant and I asked my doctor before I painted with indoor, latex-based paint and she didn’t even hesitate before saying it was fine.
Bonnie
Kat, is the subscribe function ever coming back?
Must be Tuesday
I’m curious too. I would really like it to come back.
Anonymous
I don’t know about you, but given the first topic on this thread, I wouldn’t subscribe this weekend for a million dollars. That said, I miss it to, generally.
AM
+1
AM
Also the edit function!!
Caribbean Business Dress
Hi all, posted this on an earlier thread but I think I was too late. I’m headed to the Caribbean and Latin America for work and will have meetings where I would dress formal if I was in my own state (meetings with business leaders and government representatives). Any advice on what Caribbean Formal Business dress is? The same as Northeastern US Business Formal? Does it change from island to island, and from the Caribbean to Latin America?
Anonymous
I don’t know about Caribbean. I’ve found Latin American women dress very formally, but often with more feminine “flair” — larger jewelry, more makeup, etc.–than I see in my southern US city.
Wildkitten
Never wear pantyhose and do business casual (separates, colors, not jeans) rather than business formal (black suits). Wear skirts (it’s hot).
Anonymous
My experience is St Kitts, Bahamas and Dominica is that business is formally conducted, from dress to manner of addressing one another.
DisenchantedinDC
Had a couple interviews this week to leave my current position, which I’ve been not-loving for the year I’ve been here. I turned down an offer to leave a few months ago because I could tell it wasn’t the right fit. But I decided I was really ready now to make a go of it and wow, interview with 5 years of experience and a Master’s is so different than last time I was applying!
Waiting is so hard. Have a final video interview next week for the job I really, really want and know I’m a great fit for, but I’m stressing that maybe they don’t really want me because they’re willing to wait a week from interview 2 to interview 3?
There have also been some serious personnel issues that continue to escalate this week especially, so it’s hard to know I have options on the horizon but am stuck here for now.
Just general thoughts. Doing the job offer juju rain dance in my cube and waiting for 4:30.
Cat
These shoes remind me of Carrie’s Big date night shoes on the SATC I heart NY episode, where Miranda’s water breaks and splashes them. Still cute 10+ years later!
Blazer hunt
I love the look of these Veronica Beard blazers with attached sweaters and feel like they would go well in my tech office… but I can’t afford that price tag. Has anyone come across any lower price options?
https://www.shopbop.com/long-lean-jacket-melange-uptown/vp/v=1/1508735458.htm?fm=search-viewall-shopbysize&os=false
https://www.shopbop.com/classic-jacket-hoodie-dickey-veronica/vp/v=1/1594200971.htm?fm=search-viewall-shopbysize&os=false
Anonymous
I love these shoes!
First Time Homebuyers
For those who have purchased a house, are about to, or are considering it:
What did you find most surprising?
What did you find most confusing?
What do you wish you knew beforehand?
Anything you wish someone taught you before you started the process?
Thank you!
anon a mouse
Renovations are so much harder, and so much more expensive, than they look on TV.
I wish I had beforehand (or, at least, upon taking ownership) a list of contractors and repair specialists, printed out in hard copy. Because when our power went out in a storm so the sump pump wasn’t working, I needed a plumber ASAP and it was a shot in the dark to find one using google on my phone (who gouged us).
Separately, it’s so important to really educate yourself on mortgage terms and do all your pre-approvals before you find a house. Ideally with a couple of different places in case their rates differ when you actually find something. So many people fall in love with the house and then rush through financing so they can lock it up. You can save a ton of money over the long term if you’ve done that homework in advance.
First Time Homebuyers
This is very true, people assume all mortgage people will have the same products, not true.
tesyaa
Surprising: that a house that is nicely renovated and described by the realtor as “move-in condition” needs a lot of expensive maintenance (e.g. gutters, plumbing, heating/cooling work). Don’t be fooled by an attractive interior. Structural stuff is important (and expensive to repair).
mascot
Do not scrimp on the home inspector. Get a good one and accompany him/her on the inspection of the house. You learn where a lot of things are and how to tell if they work.
Senior Attorney
Don’t spend all your money to close and be left without any cash once you take possession. Have a war chest ready for those things that will come up after closing. Best case is you will want to do some decorating, worst case is you will have an unexpected repair. Also put money aside every month for repairs and maintenance so it will be there when you need it.
Bean74
Get a sewer inspection. Had we done that we may have been able to negotiate a better purchase price and used the savings toward our new sewer line.
roses
I think I can answer all of these questions by emphasizing how important it is to have a really experienced, knowledgable realtor that you trust. Ask for recommendations from people you know. I had no idea what my budget was, how to secure a mortgage, what to look for in a house, how to tell if something was a good renovation or not. But I found a realtor through a co-worker who was incredibly knowledgable and unbiased about these things. It was essential. (If you happen to be in DC I’m happy to recommend him!)
Anonymous
If you buy new or even newer construction, realize what might be missing compared to more established homes. Outfitting an entire home with window blinds is very expensive. Ditto with landscaping. Conversely when buying an older home, consider the remaining life of big ticket items like the roof snd mechanicals. Basically, be conscious that the actual cost of your home is unlikely to be the sale price.
First Time Homebuyers
This is great stuff, thank you so much everyone!!!
anyanony
Anyone have any (cheap) ideas for an eyelid primer/shadow? (I dislike shopping/paying for cosmetics.) I have pale skin and my eyelids are normally pinkish plus show blue veins. So I’ve been using undereye concealer but it doesn’t work well. What I’d like is a skin-toned primer that doubles as a shadow. I normally add gel eyeliner and mascara and wear glasses, so I don’t like dark color eye shadow as it makes my eye disappear even more. Ideas?
mascot
Actual eyelid primer is what you want. NYX (ulta, drugstores) makes some that are pigmented. I also like the tinted Urban Decay primers, but those are a bit pricier.
Anonymous
Yes I like Too-Faced eyeshadow primer. It’s tinted.
Rogue Banker
TooFaced is my favorite too. And the tube feels like it lasts forever, so it’s pretty good value as well.
J
MAC paint pots ($18) or the Maybelline color tattoo cream shadows ($6-8). Maybelline’s color range is more limited than MAC’s but I find their quality to be similar.
Bonnie
+1 I use MAC paint pot in bare study as a primer during the week and as a stand alone shade on weekends
Anonymous
Milani! $6 at the drugstore; rumored to be a perfect dupe for Urban Decay. Love it.
Where to sell used Lo & Sons Bag?
I have a Lo & Son’s Brookline Laptop bag that is still in pretty good shape. I listed it on Ebay and Tradesy for around $100 and no luck. Any ideas of where to sell it? Thanks!
Rural Juror
I sold mine at my local consignment store. It sold a lot faster than I expected actually.
Self Exam
I just had my annual exam and the doctor found a lump on my b r e a s t. I am obviously getting this checked out (mammogram and ultrasound in two weeks).
Part of what is bothering me is that I do self-exams, and I never felt it. The doctor told me it was small, and he could only feel it moving his hand in one particular direction. He tried to help me feel it, and I still couldn’t tell. My b r e a s t s are very “dense” apparently, and they basically feel entirely lumpy to me, but I didn’t notice anything different. I’m not sure how to do a better job at this.
Even though I feel like this is most likely a scare that will turn out ok (I get a lot of benign cysts, no history of b cancer, doctor said it was very small, felt smooth which I guess is good), I am still concerned and still bothered that I didn’t find this myself.
Am I doing something wrong or is this just how it is when you have a dense chest?
mascot
This is why we have multiple methods of detection. You may be good at knowing your body, your doctor has felt 1000 chests other than yours and the machines can often beat everyone. I can’t feel my cysts either, but my doctor can.
Self care
Good point. I feel like I know my body so well. I’ve picked up on things before my doctors in the past that resulted in needing surgery just by knowing something wasn’t right. I try so hard to pay attention, and I’ve made a promise to myself over the past couple of years to put my health first (and not let law suck my health away). I think that’s why I’m so bothered by it, but I think you make a good point – there’s a reason we have annual exams.
Bonnie
Mine are dense too and the doc told me that I’d likely be coming in for fairly regular mammograms and ultrasounds because self-exams won’t be enough. Good luck.
Allison
Just need to vent I guess . . . I’ve been thinking a lot about infidelity this month. I was cheated on by a long term boyfriend when I was younger and I know how crappy it can be. The suspicions, the hurt when it’s confirmed, trying to repair things even though it wasn’t even your fault but you love him and can’t let go . . . I’m not married or in a relationship right now, but between a disgusting man trying to drag me into his extramarital affairs (I ended it after I found out he was married) and the Ashley Madison leak, with so many people coming out of the woodwork to defend cheaters, saying it’s not a big deal since it’s not actually illegal and it’s a free country, and we’re not even meant to be monogamous anyway so you can’t expect people to stay committed, it’s all very disheartening.
I get that monogamy isn’t for everyone, and it would be nice if there was more acceptance of open relationships and open marriages, and less pressure to commit when you don’t want to, but to me having an affair is a terrible thing to do to your spouse, and it grosses me out how common it is and how acceptable it is these days.
I don’t mind where I am now, with men I’d probably call “lovers” (if anyone uses that term anymore), I don’t feel like I need to commit to anyone right now but eventually I want to get married and settle down, but what’s the point if no one can stay faithful?
Ellen
I agree with the OP. Men are NOT interested in setteling down with women like us. Instead they perfer JUST to have causal s*x with us, then walk away after haveing their fun with us after we take our clotheing off for them. FOOEY on men that just want us to take our clotheing off so that they can stare at our boobie’s and tuchuses and then just get on top of us and huff and puff until they are satisfied then walk away. DOUBEL FOOEY b/c we want MEN to be with not just to have them huffeing and puffeing on top of us. THAT is NOT romantic. FOOEY!
Susan
I love it! Ellen the “Codfish”!! No wonder the guys head for the hills after dipping their beaks in the fish tank. Not even a heap of mega bucks from her dad is going to get a guy back down there. FOOEY!
VJ
Yuckies! This simply can not be our Ellen. She goes to Elizabeth Arden who would have counseled her if feminine odour was a problem.
January
Stay off the Internet. Obviously the Ashley Madison leak touched a nerve for you given your past and present experiences, but I’m assuming where you’re seeing people “coming out of the woodwork to defend cheaters” is online. Don’t take things people say on message boards, Facebook, in random news articles on CNN as representative of humanity as a whole or the kinds of experiences you could have in a committed relationship, should you choose to enter one.
Allison
One of them was an acquaintance of mine, granted it’s not the first time he’s pissed me off by defending behavior that I have a problem with, but he was like “yeah it’s not good but most people do it, here read these articles about it, sorry but it’s true, might as well accept it.”
Anonymous
Well, I’ll just say two things. One: I don’t think it’s more common, I think it’s just more visible. I think if anything, more people, especially men, used to cheat and society/their wives looked the other way because it was expected. Part of the reason you’re hearing about it more is because it’s less acceptable now and actually leads to divorce. Two: I think the silver lining of people talking about it more now and even being more open to open relationships is that it gives you the ability to look for a partner who wants the same things as you do and values what you value and will have the same view of monogamy as you do. Those people are out there too.
A
That’s what I’ve been thinking. People seem to think condoning infidelity is the progressive thing to do because it’s “questioning society’s rules” and rebelling against traditions, when really we’ve been condoning it for centuries.
Mpls
Eyeroll. He has done a thorough survey of all people then?
That sounds more like a confirmation bias to me – he looked for information to support his point of view, found it and reinforced it by talking to people he agreed with. Most evolutionary sociology stuff (humans aren’t designed to be monogamous) is pretty unreliable and is too often used as an excuse for poor impulse control and immaturity in relationship expectations. People can be monogamous if its important to them, and I think it is still important to a lot of people.
Allison
He quoted a study that surveyed people about whether they’ve cheated, but said that most people deny cheating so whatever percentage the study said is probably lower than the reality, which he estimated to be about 60% of people.
Mpls
One study is nothing. And I don’t trust most people to interpret study results correctly. Assuming it was a well constructed study in the first place, which can be tricky when you are asking people to admit to things that are socially unacceptable.
Frankly, the study sounds like its most useful in studying how many people will admit to cheating when asked. If the study had to admit that the number is probably higher due to people lying about it, then the study wasn’t adjusted to correct for that and any supposition on the real number is extrapolated from other data that may or may not be irrelevant. The 60% number your friend cited (or came up with himself) likely has no basis in hard fact and is essentially worthless. Maybe it makes him feel better about whatever he’s doing in his personal life, but I would not even begin to take it as any sort of reliable fact.
I'm with you
I feel you, and it all makes me just as sick. Honestly, the fact that I completely trust that my husband will never cheat on me is probably in the top 5 reasons that lead to me marrying him. I wouldn’t be able to deal with the uncertainty.
We both know that either of us cheating will lead to divorce, we are extremely committed to not divorcing, and we both know neither of us would ever cheat on the other. I realize this all sounds terribly naive, but I really do think there are varying levels of “what would it take for you to cheat” and for us, it’s just not an option.
I think my main issue is respect and dignity. If you really need to cheat, just get a divorce (or at least tell your partner you’re planning to cheat before you do).
A
If there’s a problem with your marriage that’s driving you to cheat, solve that problem! and maybe solving it is making the marriage slightly open. I dunno . . . never been married, and now I’m thinking there might not be a point.
Dress code!
Darn, I know I’m way too late… I’ll try again on Monday, but I won’t have much time then! I’m presenting at a Board meeting next week but I’m not sure what to wear! Last time I was there briefly before the meeting and saw board members in jeans and my industry is very casual, and I know I don’t need a suit, but unfortunately it’s 100+ degrees here and my more professional clothes are NOT weather appropriate. My summer work clothes are modest and professional, but brighter colors/patterns. I like them because I feel confident and my work is creative-related so I feel they fit the image I want to project on a daily basis, but I’m not sure if they’re appopriate for a “special occasion” like a board meeting. Is a fit and flair dress (minimal flair, below knee), or patterned cotton pencil skirt (below knee) totally out of the question? I’m going to go shopping for a cap sleeve solid sheath dress, but who knows what I’ll find!