Frugal Friday’s Workwear Report: Pointelle Cardigan

382 Comments

1. I’m going to a workshop/networking event where the stated dress code is on the casual end of business casual. The email said that jeans and a button down/nice top would be fine. I can’t wear skinny jeans, right? I’m also very curvy/hourglassy, which I’m thinking is another reason I shouldn’t wear skinny jeans.

   1. If they’re dark wash, I’d probably be fine with it as long as they aren’t too tight/revealing. I wear skinny jeans in my business casual office every Friday but just make sure they’re with a nicer top.

      1. Hmm. They are tight. I guess I just assumed that skinny jeans were tight by default since every pair I’ve ever had were tight. The large butt probably makes them “revealing” too.

         1. I think there is TIGHT and then there is form-fitting snug tight. The former, probably not okay, the latter, fine.

   2. Your instincts are right. I would wear ankle pants in this context, maybe in color, or straight leg/bootcut jeans if you have them.

   3. It might depend on your age and the location- I would feel comfortable in skinny, cropped jeans with a pointed flat or wedge, a v neck blouse, and a blazer. I’m also an hourglass/pear, but know which size and lengths to wear. You could also try skinny ankle-length pants with a silk blouse and pointed flats. If it’s going to be hot out, then a skirt or dress might just be more comfortable for you anyways.

   4. Why not? That definitely on the casual end of business casual. If it’s a style you generally don’t like, then don’t but it doesn’t sound like it from your post.

   5. I always do skinny jeans and I’m very curvy; my usual uniform is black heels or gray, dark wash skinny jeans, black tee, black blazer, long pendant and it always goes over well, from networking events to casual conferences.

   6. I only own skinny jeans (haven’t jumped back on the flare trend) and would definitely wear them, probably with a nice tunic or striped top.

   7. If you look pulled together, I think it’s fine.

   8. I would probably not wear skinny jeans, and I do have a pair that are not as tight that I wear on Fridays at work. I think wider leg trouser jeans (if you have them) and wedges would be great for this and flattering on your figure. I also second the idea of a dress with a cardigan or denim jacket (or without if the dress has sleeves).

   9. I’m your mom’s age and I would totally wear skinny jeans.

2. I know this site tends to be frequented by mainly US-based readers, but has anyone taken the Qualified Lawyers Transfer Scheme assessments to be admitted in England and Wales? If so, how did you find them (particularly in terms of study time commitment)?

   1. When I worked at a law firm in London we have many Aussie associates take the QLTT. My understanding (based on what they told me) is that it’s pretty easy. It’s certainly nothing like a bar exam. I don’t even think they got time off work to study for it. It seemed to be more of a formality to get it done.

      1. Thanks – unfortunately times have changed since the QLTT (which a number of my coworkers took back in the day), and the requirements are a lot more onerous!

3. Any recommendations for products that help with frizz during the humid summer months? I have long, thick wavy hair that I typically blow out every few days, but it’s looking pretty rough in the DC humidity these days. Thanks, ladies!

   1. I swear by the drybar and KMS products. I like the drybar shine cream and the KMS anti humidity sealant. KMS also has some frizz creams as well.

   2. I know I’m a broken record, but if you’re struggling with it, seriously consider Japanese Straightening.

      I had crazy frizzy, wavy hair (think Princess Diaries pre-makeover) and I’m in Florida where it’s 100% humidity right now, and my hair air dries perfectly straight and never frizzes at all. It is a miracle and I am kicking myself for not doing it sooner.

      (Alternatively, try FrizzDismiss from Redken. When I lived up north, it helped, but it couldn’t help with Florida humidity)

   3. Oribe Impermeable Anti-Humidity Spray. Life changer for me. I straighten my wavy/curly hair daily, live in Texas, and my hair doesn’t budge with this spray. It keeps my hair exactly like how I left the house in 80% humidity and 105 degree temps, so I think it’s worth every penny.

   4. I use the Friz Ease hair spray. It’s like cement, but helps with frizz and my little baby hair fly-aways that frame my face.

   5. Living Proof products have saved my hair, though I keep it wavy and just want to keep the frizz down.

      Personally I look for products without silicone – they look great when I leave the house but after a few hours all bets are off.

   6. Tresemme Climate Control mousse. Other varieties not the same. Just Climate Control. Not often carried in stores, but definitely on A m a z o n.

   7. Tres emme curl mousse. I have curly hair (not tight coily, but defined loose curls) and I can’t live without it. I put it in my hair when wet/damp and let it air dry, but I can also blow dry it with a diffuser. In particularly humid months (I spent several summers in North Carolina) I also spray some hair spray (generic any brand) while my hair is still damp and pat down the frizz so it stays flatter on top.

4. Do you love where you live? I don’t mean do you love your job or anything like that, but do you love the city or town that you’re in? If not, does the other stuff like your job or something else make it worth it to stay?

   I’m asking because I realized that I don’t love coming back to my city after vacations. It’s just completely “meh,” whereas I have family who live in a beautiful area who just LOVE coming home and think it’s the best place to be.

   1. I lived in Philadelphia my whole live (except for a brief stint in Delaware) and I was “meh”. I loved parts of the city and the history, but I hated the cold and grayness. For months out of the year, I was just blah.

      I moved to Orlando, and I love it. Love it. I still wake up every morning and am gleeful at the sight of palm trees and the crazy birds and wildlife here.

      When I travel, I am so flipping excited to come home. I always give a very childish EEEEEEEEEEEE whenever I can see the ground from the plane, because it’s so green and lush and glorious.

      Dragging me out of here is next to impossible.

      1. Funny, I feel that way about Philadelphia.

         To each her own, I suppose.

         1. I feel that way about Philadelphia too- I wish I’d never left!

            1. I feel that way about Philly too — and I’m still here! The tropics are fun to visit, but I like seasons and city living and all the great restaurants and and and.

         2. Me too! We should have a philly meetup sometime soon.

         3. Philadelphia is definitely my “meh” city — lived here for ~10 years — but the job, my SO, my life, really, makes it worth it to stay. I’m a Portland, OR girl at heart, but my love for it (my hometown) definitely ISN’T enough to make me move, and wasn’t enough to make me stay there.

      2. On a similar note- has anyone moved just for weather reasons?

         I feel similarly about my city- the constant grey just gets to me. I am sluggish and bored and feel like I’m wasting my life- even when I have lots to do, I’m active, lots of friends. Whenever I spend time in colorful/lush places, I am so happy and productive (both for work travel and for pleasure). I think I am particularly affected by grey weather, and am considering trying to make a move somewhere warm/sunny, but it feels silly to just do that.

         I worry about moving somewhere and sacrificing all of the good networking I have done in my current city. Anyone done this type of move?

         1. Weather wasn’t the only factor in a move I made, but it was a very big factor. After a year in the PNW, I moved back to the east coast because I realized just how cruddy I felt after the grey of late fall/winter/early spring. Although the summer was glorious, the rest of the year was just too much time to feel so bad. When combined with my ability to find an equivalent (to slightly better) fit professionally in the new city, I jumped at the chance to leave. I occasionally will have a fleeting “what if I had stayed” thought, but it is always easily dismissed — life is too short to not enjoy where you live.

            1. It was a one-year position, so I was always going to be moving anyway, but I spent a year in an area with a PNW-type climate. I hated it so much. The rain and constant grayness made me miserable in a way I’ve never been before in my entire life. I’m an active person who likes to get out and explore, but I could barely drag myself out of my apartment half the time. I just became so small and sad. Nothing could make me move back to that climate. Nothing.

         2. Yes, from ST to LA.

            1. *SF (really autocorrect… ST?)

         3. Re: the weather, I feel exactly this way about Chicago sometimes. I joke that it’s like I’m in an abusive relationship. The summers are so good that you forget about the winters… but they’re rough.

            And the change is just so drastic! You go from what feels like nonstop darkness, gray, and cold to blue skies, lush greenery everywhere, and gorgeous weather (like today, which is pretty much perfect in Chicago). All that in just a couple of months!

            That said, I love living here and am always excited to come home after travels. But I know plenty of people who have left for CA and the like in search of better weather. It’s not a crazy reason to move.

            Since I (most of the time) think the benefits of living in Chicago outweigh the disadvantages, but the disadvantages are SO BAD when they hit in mid-February, I compensate by always planning a warm weather vacation in mid-winter so I have something to look forward to. But it sounds like that wouldn’t be enough for you. Sounds like the lifestyle in Boston is the issue and the weather isn’t the biggest problem.

         4. It’s exactly why I moved from Philly to Orlando. I think I truly had SAD–the whole winter I would be so miserable. I just felt like all I could do was be in bed, or go outside and be cold. It was awful, and I got really depressed.

            I moved just for the chance of seeing the sun, and it’s amazing how much my mood improved and how much more active I am.

         5. I didn’t move for weather, but I moved from Minnesota to LA for job reasons, and then joyfully discovered just how much it helped to be somewhere warm and sunny. I am not a sunbather or even a big fan of going to the beach, but being somewhere that is is pleasant mostly year round has helped me immeasurably. I used to struggle with mild to moderate depression. The weather and sunshine alone helps a lot, and what helps even more is that I can always go for a run, bike ride, or walk to boost my spirit. Looking back, I feel like I spent November – May in a fog of just trying to make it through the winter every year. I wish I’d moved sooner!

            (I have plenty of MN friends who joyfully snowshoe, ski, ice boat and even dogsled all winter long, so they would argue that they can still get outside year round! But I would just get into a down cycle and be unable to even put on my long underwear.)

            1. This is DH and me – we’re in WI with no winter hobbies that we love, or even like very much. Down cycle is the perfect description. DH in particular has a hard time coping with the long winter. one more long winter and then we’ll be free….:)

         6. We haven’t yet, but at the end of next year my DH and I are moving and weather is going to be a big factor in wherever we end up. He wants to go into a new industry that’s not at all in our state, so we’re letting new industry job opportunities + weather define our options. I have a good skill set + a pretty big network, so I think I’ll be OK. Plus I keep toying with the idea of switching industries too, so that’s exciting.

            Coming from Wisconsin, I cannot wait. I LOVE the summers here, and this time of year is my favorite. If it was like this all the time I’d never move. But we cannot deal with the long winters anymore.

         7. I went to college in a city where it rains during the entire winter and I couldn’t handle it coming from a city in the southern US with a very sunny, mild winter. Weather was definitely a factor in determining where to go after college. A few years later, my husband and I were considering relocating and I explicitly told him I would not move to the pacific northwest (because of the rain) and he should not look for jobs there, even though he is in the tech industry. We ended up coming back to our southern US hometown with sunny, mild, winters and I love it.

         8. In contrast to several others here, I moved to the PNW for the weather, and love it! I moved from DC, and have been so happy to have summer that is not nasty and humid, where I can have my windows open for months. And while the gray can get old, I love that the winters are so mild and I never face Snowpocalypse!

      3. Good to here the endorsement for Orlando – my husband and I planning on moving at the end of next year, and he’s been angling hard for florida. I’m kinda meh about it, but I would love all the things you describe loving – lush green, weather, birds/wildlife, and (to add one of my own) fresh fruit/veggie stands everywhere.

         1. Love it! My husband was meh about Florida but has become a convert.

            We have 3 gorgeous beaches within an hour, and he loves gardening, so we have fruit trees and orchids everywhere.

            Just this weekend we were running errands and past a guy selling melons from a popup stand. $2 for giant watermelons, and they were the juiciest, sweetest melons I’ve ever tasted.

            There’s just so much to do; we actually got overwhelmed, so we got a bunch of brochures from Visit Orlando and put them in a box. We shake it up and pull one out, and that’s what we do that day :)

            Butterfly gardens, wolf sanctuaries, old forts, water parks, canoe rides by the manatees, airboat rides…it never ends!

            1. Ahh, you’re selling me on it. I don’t know why I have this vision of Florida being full of retirees…I’ve visited at least 8 times and really like it every time. I have cousins who are in Orlando and always doing stuff that looks fun. DH is a big fisherman, so obviously Florida is perfect for that. He goes down every year for a week just to fish in February. I just need to get it out of my head that Florida is only for vacations/retiring.

            2. Stop making me want to move to Orlando! It’s my “if it all goes to hell” fantasy escape home already. Bah.

      4. I’ve lived all over the country and Philly is hands down my favorite city. When I lived there, I felt completely at home. I miss it so much. I would seriously retire there.

      5. I love Philly and it’s an awesome city…just too darned cold for me!

   2. Yes. I live in a college town in the Midwest. It is not beautiful in the classic sense like the coast of California or New England (although I do think sunrise over the cornfields can be pretty gorgeous) and it’s certainly not a vacation destination, but it s a great, easy place to live with an incredibly low cost of living and many of the advantages of a larger, more cosmopolitan area because of the university community. Admittedly, a big part of what I love about my town is that I own a large house for the first time in my life (I lived in Boston, DC and SF before moving here, and always lived in small apartments). Certainly there is less nightlife and culture in my area than in a big city, but I’m at the age (33) where I would much rather have a glass of wine on my back deck with my husband than go to a trendy gallery opening, and now I have a back deck on which to do that. We are also closer to family and have the space in which to host them, which is really nice. I used to always have a major case of the sads when coming home from vacations. I still love traveling and doubt that will ever change, but I am now really happy to come home from vacation and don’t generally like to go away for much more than a week at a time. Plus, super LCOL area means I have more money for travel! :)

   3. Actually struggling with this right now. My husband and I do not like where we live, but I love my job, and he is happy at his job. We know where we want to live (has friends and family close by, and better access to the activities we enjoy) and have thought about relocating (I can’t relocate via my job), but it’s been theoretical up until yesterday. I’ve been sending resumes to good companies where we’d like to live, but didn’t really think I’d hear anything. However, after a couple of great phone interviews, one of the companies wants me to fly in for an in-person interview. So now it’s definitely a very real situation that we are facing. Like I said, I love my job (a lot), but we are unhappy here. I have some time before the in person interview to think things through, and of course an interview is not a job offer. But it’s a tough thing to think about. I hear you.

   4. I’ve lived in a variety of places, but I absolutely love living in Chattanooga. It is gorgeous, the cost of living is low, it’s nice and warm, and there is a very vibrant arts and tech startup community here. There is always something going on, lots of delicious local restaurants and fun trendy bars, plenty of stuff to do with kids, and it’s not a big enough city that traffic is an issue. I really love it here.

      1. Spent some time in Chattanooga two years ago. Really loved it! Pretty, easy, walkable, and so friendly people!

      2. My in-laws recently moved to Chattanooga and LOVE it.

   5. I truly love where I live. I am “from” Boston, grew up south of the city in the ‘burbs, lived in the city for a while, and now life in a different suburban town. I much prefer my hometown to where I am now, but I truly love my current town. I often miss physically living in the city, as well. I have a strong affinity for the greater Boston/New England area. I am very attracted to the physical beauty of where I am from.

      I lived outside the region in two mid-Atlantic cities (actually within the city limits) and in a third southern city, also within city limits. I felt the way you did – just meh. There were lots of positive about them, and my time living there was generally well spent, I always felt they missed the je ne sais quoi of my home region.

   6. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I moved back to Atlanta four years ago after living in New York, Seattle, and overseas, and I’m absolutely in love with my city. The cost of living is low, the weather is awesome (if you like heat, which I do), and the city is so vibrant that it’s almost overwhelming – there’s so much going on that I’m always having to turn down awesome stuff to go do other awesome stuff, and there’s such a sense of optimism and opportunity. I love it. You basically live your life outdoors from April to November and it’s an incredibly welcoming city. I’m so happy I came home.

      1. That’s what I want! Especially the living outside from April to November! What industries are big in ATL?

         1. Marketing (think Coca-Cola!)
            Transportation (UPS, Delta Airlines, railroad hub, trucking hub)
            Food & Bev (Coke, Chick-fil-A, lots of fast food have HQ or huge offices here)
            Some retail (Home Depot, etc.)

         2. Also, Georgia Tech, Georgia State, and Emory University/Healthcare have plenty of good openings in different functions if you’re interested in that route!

            1. +1

               Public health, too. The CDC is headquartered here. We’ve got lots of consulting, too. ATL is really the commercial headquarters of the south, excepting Charlotte for financial services and the RTP is also a bit research/biotech hub.

      2. I love Atlanta too. Not so much the heat, but there’s a lot of change and growth happening here, especially in in-town neighborhoods after decades of suburban sprawl, and feeling like I’m part of that change is among my favorite parts of living here. Other favorite parts: (1) It’s a racially and economically diverse place. (2) The different in-town neighborhoods, each with their own little “downtowns” and their own distinct personalities, make it feel sometimes like several small towns cobbled together. This small-town girl doesn’t feel lost in the big city.

   7. I live 3 blocks from the beach in LA’s beach cities… I love where I live.

      1. Me too! I’m about a block from the beach in Playa del Rey. At least once every morning when I’m running (and sometimes more than that), I look at the beach and the water and the palm trees and think, “I live here! I LIVE here!! Omg.”

         1. +1. I’m in SF. Every time I go running down at Crissy Field by the Bay I think, “I *live* here! I can’t believe I get to live here!”

            1. +1 – hi! Me too!

   8. I grew up in the Midwest, and I live in Boston now. I am obsessed with Boston and all of New England — this city is totally where I belong. I love flying into Logan and seeing the Pru and the Citgo sign and the ocean. I’ve lived here nearly a decade and doubt that I’ll leave.

      1. So funny – Boston is my “meh” city. I’m happy that it’s perfect for you, though!

         1. Yeah, Boston is very beautiful but I really disliked living there. Cold weather and people. To each her own!

            1. It’s funny, I was worried about the cold people thing. But I have found that once you find friends in Boston, this group of friends is among the most fiercely loyal and would-drop-everything-to-help I’ve ever met.

   9. When I started dreading the plane landing back in LGA instead of being excited to be back was when I knew it was time to leave NYC. I’m in Raleigh now and love it. Weather was a big factor in me leaving NYC, as was cost of living. And the general stress level of the city.

      1. I enjoy getting away from NYC, but when I see the skyline as I fly back in, I feel like I’m truly coming home. Despite the HCOL, traffic, congestion and everything else I could complain about, I still love it here and feel homesick if I’m gone too long.

   10. We love living in D.C. We’ve lived all over the place but I like that it is a city but not overwhelming so we can live downtown, yet still have green space. I grew up in the Midwest and considered living in Chicago but I could not deal with the winters. D.C. still gets cold weather but it’s not like what I grew up with.

       1. I feel the same way…95% of the time. I love the size and vibe and weather of DC and the intellectual culture. I love that there is always something to do but not SO many things that I don’t even know where to start (like in NY). I’m certainly not “meh” about it, but…the hyper type-A culture, especially around kids and schooling, is the one thing holding me back from saying I would 100% never live anywhere else. I lived in Chicago before this, and the only thing I miss about that city is how laid-back everyone seems compared to here.

          1. I live in DC as well and really like it, although one thing I miss is being able to walk everywhere within the city (I’ve lived in smaller, compact cities where you can pretty much walk a lot of the city on foot, where as DC is more spread out).

             I agree with Emmer that I’m not a fan of the helicopter parent/private school obsession in the city but I found it to be the same in other HCOL, east coast cities I’ve lived in. What I DO love about DC is that many public schools are excellent and so you can actually remain in the city with kids without forking over a fortune for private school.

   11. I love where I live in Bozeman MT. It is a small town but with a big university and lots of people I can relate to. (I’m liberal and outdoorsy.) Life is pretty simple – I can hop on my bike to meet friends for a drink on Main Street, or have friends over for a BBQ on the deck. Winters are long but yay for great downhill skiing just 30 mins up the road, and xc skiing right here in town. It’s definitely missing the excitement (and cultural offerings) of a bigger city, but after many years in big cities I realized I spent so much time just trying to get places, and not enough time enjoying what the city had to offer. Bozeman is a liberal town in a conservative state, so sometimes going outside of Bozeman it’s a bit jarring to experience local politics or racism, but overall I find Montanans kind and independent.

       1. What ski hill is 30 minutes away? I have my eye on Bozeman as a potential place to move and would love to hear more. How is the job scene there?

          1. Bridger Bowl ski resort. Big Sky is also about 45-50 minutes away (if the roads are clear). The job scene is terrible here – I think it’s the only reason more people don’t move here, so it’s a mixed blessing (the town is already growing rapidly). The university is the main employer, and there are a few software companies, but salaries are very low compared to the cost of living here (which isn’t as low as you would expect).

             The other negative I should mention is the lack of diversity. It’s getting better, but after living in CA I find this place very non-diverse.

   12. I grew up in Portland, Oregon before it became what it is today (though I did take trapeze lessons and rode a unicycle to school, 30 years ago.) I still love it, but I ended up settling down in the Twin Cities in Minnesota. Minnesota is great it many ways – low unemployment, great schools, vibrant arts scene, etc – but the winters are (obviously) terrible and I really miss the mountains. I would move back to Portland in a heartbeat if it ever made sense for my family, but it would require two lawyers re-taking the bar, and a significantly higher cost of living.

       1. TK — check into reciprocity! The reciprocity in Oregon has improved dramatically in the last 8 years, enabling me to move there this year! I am so excited to move back home :). I hear you on the cost of living, though.

       2. I had every intention of returning to Portland someday. I’m so sad about how expensive everything has become. I really miss Oregon.

          1. I have lived in Portland, OR for 15 years and I still get excited whenever we are flying back in from vacation (which is, funnily enough, often near Philly because of in-laws). That said, the city really needs to step it up in dealing with housing– both the skyrocketing rents and our related homelessness problem –for this place to remain livable for long. I still love love love it here, though.

   13. I love my hometown, having been blessed to grow up and go to school in Charlottesville. I love almost everything about it: access to the mountains, an active and athletic culture, wineries and breweries, excellent restaurants, music, all the culture and arts associated with a major university, and a very liberal attitude. It has a small-town feel, but is big enough that I don’t feel like I’m constantly tripping over my elementary school classmates; and has easy access to Richmond, DC, and the other big mid-Atlantic/Northeast cities when it starts feeling too small. It’s not perfect: traffic is getting rougher and rougher, housing prices can hit Northern Virginia levels, people can be stuck up, and race relations have historically been challenging. But I don’t think I’ll ever love anywhere the way that I love Cville.

       I live in Richmond now and like it a lot. It has a lot of things going for it–a ridiculously low COL for its level of awesomeness, so much energy around arts and culture, beer, so many cute neighborhoods, so mellow–but I don’t think I’ll ever love anywhere the way that I love Cville. I don’t intend to move any time soon, but it’s just…not Charlottesville. I need mountains and a winery ten minutes away from my house.

       1. This is funny because everyone loves Charlottesville, but I’ve lived here for three years and hate it. I seem to be the only one I’ve ever met who feels this way. I find it so insular, with not just race problems but stunning classism. I’m uncomfortable with the canonization of Thomas Jefferson. Plus the pettier reasons: I hate the Dave Matthews Band and that I find the architecture bland and homogeneous.

          1. Lol, I had forgotten about the Dave Mathews band part, but agree on that too!

          2. Yeah I lived in cville for a while (and visited on weekends for even longer while my husband was finishing up grad school) and don’t like it nearly as much as “everyone” does. I lived in Richmond after leaving cville and liked it way more (and intensely want to move back!). I really like cities that are what cville thinks it is, but in reality cville is just stoplights and strip malls. Although it is really really nice to be close to tolerable wineries. Not the case where I live now.

          3. I also hate DMB, for what it’s worth. And those are all valid critiques. I haven’t heard that it’s insular before, even from my transplant friends.

       2. I went to school in Charlottesville and had a very different perception, I found it to be conservative and segregated. This was 20 years ago… hopefully things have changed

          1. I think the UVA population (especially in schools like Darden or Law) skews wayyyyy more conservative than the Charlottesville population at large these days. Segregation is less of an issue now than an increasingly acute affordable housing shortage, as historically Black, low-income areas get gentrified and push out longtime residents.But overall Cville schools are pretty unsegregated these days, at least at the schoolwide level. Individual classes and tracks get a lot more segregated. I went to a majority-minority high school, but there were usually only 2-3 Black students in the Honors/AP classes. Depressing. But not just an issue in Charlottesville.

             1. That’s very interesting to me. I have no experience with Virginia but I’ve lived in four different red or reddish-state Midwestern college towns and normally the college and its employees and students are WAY more liberal than the surrounding areas. It’s interesting to me that in some places it’s the opposite.

             2. Should have clarified–that’s certain pockets of the UVA student population. The staff and faculty are the backbone of Charlottesville’s liberalism.

             3. Very true about the faculty being liberal. I generally got along with my professors much better than most students.

   14. I live in DFW and loathe it. I’m an outdoorsy person, but it’s too hot to truly enjoy the outdoors and sun from April through October (mornings in April and October are fine, but forget about after 10am). The greenery is so dry and brushy looking, and it all just looks like weeds to me. I hate the building styles–too much faux Mediterranean and generic 70s office building (I do love the Craftsmans, but they’re all being torn down for tacky McMansions even in the close-in historic neighborhoods). There’s too much sprawl, it’s not nearly as cheap as it’s sold to be, and many people (not all, of course) are only “nice” in feigned, backstabbing way.

       I used to hate living in New England because of the rain and greyness, but I’ve grown to cringe at the sun coming out because sun = blazing hot and a sunburn within 10 minutes. I love rain and grey skies because the rainy May is the only thing that it keeps it slightly tolerable going into June and July. I’m sure I’d flip the other way if I moved back to New England, but right now the idea of there or PNW sounds fantastic.

       1. ugh, I feel you… I live in Memphis and it’s just too hot to go outside, too sprawl-y, too weedy (although to be fair, it’s not scrubby, it’s full on kudzu). The bugs are also ridiculous. I wish I could move but my job makes it very difficult.

       2. DFW is tough. I grew up there and (I feel) there’s a lot of “look at me” without a lot to back it up. In law school I remember a friend who moved from Dallas to a smaller city because he didn’t want to feel like he always had to have a new car. I’m now in Houston. It’s even more humid, but more green and alive seeming. And it just seems more authentic. I’m amazed at how much more I like living here even though people are quick to say how crap Houston is.

          All this to say I can relate to your discontent.

       3. Yup. I just moved to Dallas about 8 months ago and completely hate it. Trying to get to Austin as soon as possible.

   15. I’m in CHI for grad school and it’s definitely not for me. There are a few things I like. People are friendly and laid-back—in NYC it used to feel like a social faux pas to speak to a stranger, but here, people make friendly conversations all of the time. The COL is high, but lower than other cities, and so I feel like I’m living like a KING (although I’m definitely not). But the weather is hard to deal with, and I miss the density of other cities. Also, I know that most big cities are quite segregated, but Chicago feels *overwhelmingly* so, and that often bums me out as a person of color.

   16. Yes! I live in a smallish city just outside of Los Angeles and I love it to pieces. The weather, of course, the vibe of our town, the ability to drive to the beach or the mountains in an hour or less, the culture, our friends — all of it! Lovely Fiance and I often remark on how happy we both are that we landed here early in our careers.

       1. I love Sacramento! Beautiful River, beautiful trees, love the Capitol — its not fancy or famous, but its got the diversity and attractions of California with the friendliness and ease of the Midwest. For me, its perfect.

   17. Nope, I don’t love it here (Austin, TX). I live here despite it being Texas! I am an Oregonion and will always be one at heart. (It’s mostly a weather thing.)

       My family and job are in Austin, though, so I moved here two years ago, after having gone to middle and high school here. After living abroad or away from family for a long time, it’s worth it to me to live in a place I don’t love since I have family here. Even put down roots–bought a house, got married here, etc.

   18. Just so you know y’all are making me want to move to the US with all this waxing poetic of all the amazing places to live!

       For me, I do gratly enjoy where I live – Dublin, Ireland – but I do not love it like I once did. It’s changd over the last decade, in a lot of the practical ways, and I am considering moving elsewhere in the next few years.

5. I need to went and sob a little..

   I am on a business trip with two teammates with whom I am VERY uncomfortable with. I spend like 18 hours a day with them now and it is becoming too much to handle. I just want to run away and have some alone. I am not even done with half the trip :-(.

   If this is what lean-in means…I don’t think I can do this.

   1. Sorry :( What’s wrong with them?

   2. Hug – can you share what makes you feel uncomfortable? Then other readers might be able to suggest some survival strategies.

   3. Are there any way to escape, even for little bits?

      During conferences, if there was a 15 minute break, I would run to my hotel room (as long as the conference was within the hotel) and just sit for 5 minutes or read. Just those few minute breaks from coworkers/strangers helped me cope.

      And in the evenings, you don’t have to do EVERYTHING with them. While you may have to do one or two dinners, it’s totally okay to say you’re staying in for the night; I always made sure I had at least one night or so where I would grab dinner in my room and vedge with a book.

   4. One guy is a jerk, bully and know it all types. The other guy is very unpredictable. He is good to work with sometimes and other time it is painful, it completely depends on his mood. Now, I have to commute with them, eat three meals with them and work with them. I am with them from morning 7 to night 11.

      1. Can you play “Jerk Bingo” in your head? Like every time he redirects the conversation back to him or says “I know all about that.” If you have a chance to “not be hungry” or “go for a walk to get some fresh air” during a meal break, take it!

   5. I don’t understand the lean in comment. No lean in doesn’t mean you have to eat breakfast with people? Start enforcing some boundaries. Say you are going to skip breakfast and hit the gym one day. Say you are going to just grab take out for dinner one night because you want to explore the city a bit. Skip a different dinner because you need to catch up on emails. This has nothing to do with leaning in just get better at asserting yourself and start doing a little bit more of what you want.

      1. Ditto on this. Even if it may be the norm to have meals together, if you are going crazy spending that much time with them, look for opportunities to bow out — e.g., “I’m not much of a breakfast person, so I’ll meet you in the lobby at 8:30 to drive to the client site”, “I’m feeling a headache coming on so I’ll bow out of dinner & see you tomorrow”, “I really need to focus on this spreadsheet and being in the same room with other people is distracting — I’m going to hunker down in the other conference room for the next few hours.”

      2. I do what I can. I don’t have separate transportation and I have to work with them from 8 AM to like 9 PM. Tolerating so much time with them is too much for me. They hang out after dinner and I just say I need to sleep and leave.

      3. Yup. Download Uber if you need to and commute yourself. Its not crazy to say that you need alone time to work out/eat dinner alone – heck, catch up with friends and family! I work with consultants and it is NOT expected that you spend all day 24/7 with people, even if you’re on a client site.

   6. Ugh. Sounds like you’re on a trip with my horrid coworker. Sometimes I have to travel with him. I started just getting dinner on the way home from work (only one rental car so it had to be together) then retreating to my room. Early nights, lots of HGTV, and a bottle of wine in my hotel fridge made up for a lot.

   7. Pretend you need to take some other calls and go spend an hour or two in a conference room by yourself. The fake meeting is a great sanity saver. Also, just say you need to work through other things for lunch/dinner/breakfast and will join them after. Uber/taxis/delivery/the hotel will get the food to you.

6. I’m looking for suggestions for places to take a solo vacation. I’ve been churning out 70+ hour weeks at my not-at-all-cushy-in-house job for the past few months, and will likely be keeping this schedule through the end of the year due to my trial schedule. I would like to go somewhere I can recharge and relax, probably with some sort of spa. Can you tell I’m not really sure what I’m looking for? I’m in the Midwest and am willing to go most anywhere, and would like to spend under 4k for a week or so. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

   1. If you do not get seasick, consider a sailing cruise. You can schedule spa appointments at the stops.

      1. This. I would do a solo cruise in heartbeat. They are the definition of relaxing, and I meet lots of (awesome) solo women when I cruise. I know people think cruising is cheesy, but after my first I was completely hooked. I’m perfectly happy on Carnival, but with that budget, you could easily do something quite a bit more upscale. That said, the mainstream/mass-market cruise lines offer a very similar product and none are bad.

      2. I always thought I would hate cruises but they are actually great. Amazing food and wine, literally any service or product you could think of is available, always the right temperature and you can mingle with people or just be alone any time you want.

         Re: sea sickness, my mom sometimes gets queasy on boats and didn’t during a cruise at all. She said it was so large you generally can’t feel any movement.

         1. Same. My husband has gotten sick on almost every boat ride he’s ever been on and he was fine on a huge cruise ship, even without any meds. But a “sailing cruise” as Anon at 9:41 suggested is very different than going on a large cruise line like Carnival or Royal Caribbean. Sailing cruises are on boats that look like this, which is probably much for of an issue for people prone to seasickness: http://www.visailing.com/about_us/images/sandy-cay-bvi-boat.png

            1. I suggested sailing cruises on a yacht, not huge-ship cruises. This time of year there are a lot of options off the US East Coast, for example New England or Chesapeake; Caribbean is great for the colder season. It is not cheap, but comfortably within OP’s budget.
               I have nothing against the big-ship cruises, but personally I relax better whilst not surrounded by crowds (even if I don’t have to interact, I feel that I am still surrounded), and being on a beautiful, stately yacht is just a different feeling. But someone prone to seasickness will not enjoy sailing that much.

   2. What about a week at a nice all-inclusive in Mexico or the Caribbean? Not too long a flight, should easily fit your budget, and there are a ton of places to choose from depending on the amenities that are important to you. My bf and I went to one this past fall and I wasn’t sure I’d really love it, but it was heavenly (we went to an adults-only resort, so there were no crazy Spring Breakers). We enjoyed the spa at ours, and it was so nice to have everything included – not having to think at all and to simply be waited on after months of grueling work could be the break you need. I would have felt perfectly comfortable as a solo traveler, and if you DO want to get out on an excursion, any of the resorts can arrange something where you’d be in a group with other travelers – easy and safe.

      1. I agree it’s hard to top a beachy all-inclusive for pure relaxation, but these can skew a little romantic especially the adults only ones which IMO kind of scream “you’re away from your kids, you should be gettin’ it on!” If you want to avoid that, you might look specifically for all-inclusives or yoga retreats aimed at solo travelers in particular. I believe there are some.
         A friend went solo to a surf camp in Costa Rica (Safari Surf School in Nosara) and loved it.

   3. Personally I would love a high-end hotel with a spa, even in a city.
      My area (Atlanta) there’s a winery: Chateau Elan.
      If you’re thinking of going right now (summertime), think about a beautiful mountain area — I am relaxing just thinking about it…

   4. Direct flight to maui? You could do waikiki as a solo traveler easily as well. Jamaica? Bermuda? Aruba?

   5. I know I’ve mentioned this before, but Rancho la Puerta in Mexico sounds like it would be perfect for you. Approx. $3000 for a week incl. the best food ever plus all the wellness activities you could dream of. I view it as a mental health necessity.

      1. +10000000. Go to Rancho La Puerta! They do exactly what you need better than anyone else. It’s an amazing place.

   6. Yoga retreats seem like they would be great to do alone. Thailand, Bali, Costa Rica, Tuscany, etc – they’re everywhere, usually with some type of low key excursions built in.

   7. The Spa at Whistling Straits in Kohler, WI

      1. Uhm…no. Don’t rec this one at all. There are way better spas available in Milwukee/Chicago.

   8. Rancho La Puera Spa in Mexico (fly into San Diego) or one of the Canyon Ranch Spas?

7. Can anyone tell me how DVF sheath dresses run? I’m pear/hourglass, tall, long in the waist, and generally looking for simple sheaths in dark colors with v necks. I love the DVF bevin and layne dresses- does anyone have experience with these?

   1. They run a full size smaller for me. For reference, I’m a 2 in most brands (Hugo Boss, Trina Turk, Alice + Olivia, Kate Spade), but I wear a 4 in DVF sheaths, Tahari sheaths, and Theory sheaths.

   2. In my experience, I feel like they run a bit small. I would size up one, maybe even 2 sizes depending on your comfort level with close-fitting clothing.

   3. I think that they run small. I couldn’t get the Bevin to fit me (hips fit in a 10, but the top was clownishly large). I feel that DVF fits hourglasses best (I am Team Pear). I am usually a 4 or 6 (8 in MM LaFleur).

   4. They definitely run small. I’m usually a 2 or 4 and wear a 6 or 8 in DVF, depending on the dress.

8. Why do virtual strangers at work feel the need to comment on my weight loss? (in the 15 pound range, but I’m short so I guess you see it more). They are complimentary about it and press me for diet tips, and I feel like I should be nice and say thanks in response, but really I feel super awkward and like “argh, why do you need to comment on my body?” I just wish people weren’t paying such close attention.

   1. I just had this conversation last week, after a woman I work with but who is not in my own firm made a similar comment. After I had my son, TOTAL STRANGERS at, e.g., the dry cleaner or airport felt like they could comment on how quickly they thought I was losing the baby weight. I have not had the guts to call people out on it, but wish I did. I have typically just changed the topic immediately. But I don’t comment on my coworkers’ or strangers’ bodies, ever, and would strongly strongly prefer not to have people other than my spouse comment on mine. How is it relevant to anything???

      1. People think it is a compliment. Many women who just had a baby would love to hear that others are impressed with how fast they lost the baby weight and how tiny they are looking again.

         1. I know they think it is a compliment, but — as someone mentioned below vis a vis having a sick baby — it isn’t necessarily, and even so it’s not a compliment I want from work colleagues or total strangers who also have no frame of reference.

   2. Agreed- ugh. I am someone who lost baby weight very quickly because basically my baby was critically ill and I was so stressed out I was physically unable to eat. People were SOOO complimentary about it. When they started asking what my secret was, I’d look at them and say, ‘Oh, ya know. The bone crushing, soul shaking stress of having a critically ill child and almost dying.’

      I know I’ve gotten much better at not commenting on someone’s body since a friend’s reason for weight loss, when asked was, ‘Chemo.’

      1. My loss of the baby weight was due to my being hospitalized for a still unexplained illness when she was 3m, in which I didn’t eat for several days while under heavy sedation. Remarkable how weight drops off when you’re unconscious for days. Every time someone comments on the “impressive” weight loss, I say it’s because I was hospitalized. I don’t want anyone to think that the weight loss happened in a normal or healthy way.

      2. same. I also lost the baby weight and then some via a traumatic delivery and complicated recovery in which I didn’t eat for five days. I thought I looked like a bony corpse coming out of the hospital (had lost a ton of blood and even after several blood transfusions was ghostly pale) and people were complimenting my cheekbones. I always felt compelled to explain because I didn’t want any other woman to think that *that* was the standard for post-baby weight loss.

   3. This is interesting, because I’ve been lambasted on a couple of occasions for not noticing/commenting positively on someone’s weight loss. I generally don’t comment on these things for the reasons talked about on here, but I wonder if it just varies by person a lot and I’ll always be offending someone. To be fair, though, one of the people who got mad at me for not commenting was my ex-boyfriend’s mother, and she wasn’t the nicest or most reasonable person.

      1. I guess it might be different with a family member who you knew was trying to lose weight. But at work, I just really don’t want anyone commenting on my body. Or strangers at the dry cleaner.

         1. I didn’t actually know she was trying to lose weight. She never talked to me about it, so I assumed commenting about it wasn’t a safe thing to do. We also didn’t talk much or have a warm relationship. Would you want a friend to comment or notice? I comment when a friend (or coworker, even) has talked about trying to lose weight, and I assume that if they haven’t mentioned it to me then it’s not a safe topic to comment on. Is that a good rule or should I start commenting more with people who are friends or otherwise non-strangers/coworkers?

            1. I think it’s fair to turn it back on them – “You weren’t talking about it, so I wasn’t going to be the one to bring it up. My sense is that it is rude to comment on other people’s body or eating habits.”

            2. How about “you look nice/good” and letting the person decide whether they want to go into details?

   4. I am a big fan of saying something very direct in response such as “Sorry, I am not interested in discussing my appearance (or whatever thing you don’t want to talk about with that person.)”

      I do this in a up beat tone of voice and a super friendly expression on my face. I then immediately redirect the topic of conversation to something happy/completely innocuous.

      I have found this be very effective. Sometimes it takes people a split second to process the very firm/direct thing I said with my pleasant demeanor, but I haven’t really had any significant push back from anyone.

      It is totally hilarious watching someone people’s place as the thought flashes “wait did this tiny blond lady dressed in pink just shut me down???”

      1. Honestly, if I had genuinely meant to pay you a compliment and this was your response, I would think you were pretentious and rude.

         1. Agreed.

   5. Ugh, I think you need to chill and give people the benefit of the doubt. For better or worse, there is a notion that less weight = better, and the people commenting on how much you have lost are trying to be nice and compliment you. It’s so hard for so many of us to lose weight after having had a baby, and I would have been thrilled to get such comments. Please assume the best of people.

      1. This is an unkind comment. Personally, I have a really hard time when people comment on weight loss because it takes me back to being praised for losing weight when I was starving myself and purging and it brings that all back. I know people mean well and don’t blame them for it but that doesn’t make it less hard. I can’t just “chill” and good intentions don’t make the result any different.

      2. I think this is the problem though–the notion that less weight = better.

         The NY Times article yesterday on how commenting on a young girl’s body can cause her to become obese in adulthood even if she wasn’t as a child when she received the comment is totally my situation and it pisses me off.

         I know that I personally avoid complimenting people on body changes unless I know that the person is actively trying to lose weight.

         1. Can you link that article? That’s my situation as well.

      3. I agree with this.

      4. I know they are trying to be nice, hence me responding politely despite my discomfort.

      5. I think you can give people the benefit of the doubt and assume good intentions, while still challenging the notion that your body is an acceptable topic of conversation. Society has normalized that kind of talk and plenty of people do mean to be nice and complimentary; and some people do appreciate it. However, Anonymous at 9:48 provides perfect examples of why this can be harmful; for myself, as someone who has struggled on and off with ED, comments on my body can be triggering, and at various points in my life have knocked me into some very dark places. Unless you have a close enough relationship with someone that you can be sure they’d welcome the compliment, the potential that it would be well received is never going to outweigh the potential harm.

         1. Agreed. I once lost a ton of weight after discontinuing a few meds– people were constantly asking me for my secret, and it was very uncomfortable.

   6. I never comment on stranger’s or acquaintance’s weight loss. If I’m seeing someone that I haven’t seen in a while and they have a noticeable weight-loss (like the mother in law above) I default to saying “You look gorgeous/wonderful/relaxed.” and if they want to explain, then there’s their opening. For coworkers or non-close friends I would never comment unless they’ve told me that they are trying to lose weight (and there are lots of people who are open about being on a weight-loss plan.

      1. Yes, this seems like an ideal way to handle it. Honestly, I wouldn’t even mind if my coworkers said I looked nice…I would take (and even appreciate) the compliment.

   7. why can’t you just say thank you, and move on. If they ask why, just say diet and exercise, or whatever. People are obviously meaning to say something nice, take it for what its worth instead of being annoyed by someone being nice.

9. I travel frequently for work, and have noticed over the course of the past year that my child (upper elementary school) tends to perform below expectations in school whenever I am gone. I am not sure whether it’s because my husband doesn’t do a good job of review her homework and helping her prepare for exams, she’s staying up too late, she is upset and distracted because I’m gone, or a combination of these factors. The same thing happens with her sport–I missed one competition because I was out of town, and it was her worst performance of the season. I have been traveling for her entire life, but recently she has begun crying when I leave and begging me to come home the entire time I’m gone.

   When I travel, I leave healthy meals in the fridge for my husband and daughter to eat and a detailed schedule of what is happening each day. They always end up eating out after her sports practices, which is understandable, but this means that homework gets started late and she gets to bed late. My husband reviews her homework and helps her study, but he has zero teaching experience and terrible test-taking and exam prep skills, so he is unable to help her as much as I can. Travel is a necessity in my line of work, and my job actually involves less travel than many other positions in the field. Becoming a SAHM is not an option, and to get a job without travel I’d have to switch to a field in which I’m not interested and go back to school for technical training or another graduate degree. I am at my wit’s end. On the one hand, the kid is old enough that she should be able to handle her schoolwork without my being there every day. On the other hand, all the other moms put in a lot more time supervising schoolwork and teaching their kids extra material (okay, the one other professional mom I know doesn’t do all of this herself, but she has a nanny to do it for her), and it doesn’t seem fair that I’m depriving my daughter of support and opportunity just so I can jet all over the country doing my job.

   Has anyone else been in a similar situation? Advice? Commiseration?

   1. Sounds like you are in a very high-pressure school. What grade is she in?

      1. Fourth grade. The school itself is not high-pressure, but the quality of instruction in fourth grade has been poor compared with the earlier grades, and a lot of parental involvement is expected. Example 1: the teachers don’t grade or review the homework, and parents are told to check their kids’ homework and go over errors with them. Example 2: The kids are assigned to do research projects without being taught how to find sources, take notes on relevant information, organize the notes, structure and outline the report, or prepare a bibliography. Parents are supposed to guide their kids through the process. The high-pressure aspects are that the other moms are SAHMs who are doing tons of outside enrichment activities with their kids, and that performance in math as early as the third grade influences the child’s eligibility for a highly competitive high school program that we want our daughter to be able to apply for if it seems like a good fit when the time comes.

         1. Ugh that life sounds miserable for her. There is no reason why you should be pressuring her on 4th grade math so she can get into a good high school.

         2. Do you have other school options because this sounds terrible. Or can you get a tutor? I’m fine with supporting my child and reinforcing what is learned at school, but if I wanted to homeschool then I wouldn’t be writing the tuition check.

            1. Yeah, I hate this school. It is our local public school and is unfortunately supposed to be the best public school in the area. Private school is not in our budget (still paying off law school) and would be logistically difficult because the private schools are not located near our home or offices.

               I do feel like a helicopter parent, and I hate it, but I feel like I have no other choice. I am trying to teach my child the study and writing skills she’ll need to be independent, but the school is not supporting the kids in being independent by teaching those same skills. I have signed her up for a study skills course this summer, which will hopefully help.

            2. Study skills?!? Do you not like her? She is a kid!! Send her to camp. Sleep away camp. Let her have fun in the woods away from the pressure.

            3. She is going to sleepaway camp in the woods too. Just for comparison, her best friend is taking Chinese and Spanish lessons and doing algebra workbooks all summer.

               The more I write, the more crazy I realize I sound. Maybe the solution is more yoga and a night with Shots! Shots! Shots! for mommy.

            4. Agreed. Miserable for her and for you. Send her to camp! She’ll learn much more valuable skills and the study skills will come during the course of her having to, you know, study. She’ll eventually figure out what works best for her.

            5. This sounds like hell on earth for a fourth grader, and that level of structure is also AWFUL from a developmental perspective. This is coming from someone who works in higher education with the children of helicopter parents who can barely use Google on their own and crumple like damp tissues at the first sign of difficulty.

               It seems like you realize this is not a good situation. I would look at other schools, reputations be damned. That is not normal. Will fifth grade be better? Have you talked to those teachers or the administration?

            6. In my area “best” = schools that perform really well on standardized tests and have high numbers of kids taking AP tests, but many of them achieve that with ridiculous amounts of homework and expect parents to do a ton of work – and there is very little creative or enjoyable work.

               My kids school is only in the middle of the pack for test scores, because they have decided to let good enough be good enough when it comes to testing and then focus on making the kids well rounded, so they have lots of art and music, study local history and nature, etc. I am so happy we didn’t fall for the “best” schools option.

               But if you really want to help with the “how to get homework done when you travel” question – what does your daughter do after school until you and your husband get home? Could you find a college aged babysitter/tutor to play for an hour and then help her with her homework, at least a couple days a week? Maybe shared with another family with a similar aged kid?

               Is your 4th grader upset when she doesn’t do as well on exams when you are gone? Is she actually upset because she didn’t do her best, or is she upset because she feels like she is letting you down?

               Tough love time: I was an anxious child who desperately wanted to please my parents by being a “good, smart girl”. By all appearances I did that – great grades, top of my class, got into a really good college, etc. However, underneath I was an anxious basketcase terrified I was going to let my parents down if I slipped a little bit with a horrible eating disorder. As an adult, I’m still struggling with how to work hard for my own sake now that I don’t have that “can’t let my parents down, can’t let anyone know I’m not perfect” mentality.

               Please ease up on your daughter, and on yourself. You are not the world’s worst mom. You are a mom who wants what is best for your daughter, but think about whether your definition of “best” includes being happy for her own sake, and not just happy because she’s pleasing you.

            7. No to study skills camp.

         3. This school sounds insane. I’d push back on this expectation of excessive parental involvement in assignments – the assumption that there will be one parent available at all times for this is an incredibly privileged and damaging one.

            1. Everyone please google United Opt Out and fight back against the insanity of race to the top.

         4. The school is terrible. The other moms are buying into crap.

   2. In the summer, could she join you on some trips? You pay her airfare and she hangs in your hotel, has room service, hangs out at the hotel pool? If she’s too young for that, maybe a grandparent comes along too with her? If she gets to see the “fun” side of business travel maybe she will think it’s cool and brag about it instead of feeling like she’s missing out. Does she have a female friend of yours that she looks up to and would be excited to have at a performance? My friend is a dance teacher and her friends kids would rather she be at recital than their own parents because they know she “gets” it.

      1. Oops! Missed upper elementary school part.

   3. Who’s expectations is she not meeting – hers, yours or the school’s? It sounds like she needs a lot of pushing for the environment she is in, but doesn’t have the internal motivation to push herself. Have you talked to her about what has changed? Are their dynamics at school that are complicating things? Is it possible you need to reassess what *your* goals for your daughter are to be more inline with what actually works for your daughter?

      1. Her own goals, unfortunately. She really likes getting straight As and high test scores, winning the spelling bee, etc. She has also been diagnosed as highly gifted and until this year has maxed out all of her standardized tests, so the baseline expectation for her academic performance is high. Part of the problem is that the school’s expectations are too low. She got straight As on her report card and passed all the state tests, so nobody cares that she is now only one grade level ahead in reading when she used to be two grade levels ahead (which means that she has made NO progress at all over the past year, when any child should have made at least one grade level’s worth of progress), or that she scored significantly lower on the state tests than she did last year.

         1. Wait hold up. You’re this freaked out about her grades, yet she is getting straight A’s? Why does she need to be two grade levels ahead? What’s wrong with just liking to read? Why are you such a helicopter mom?

            If you hate this school so much put her in a different one, but I’d seriously consider calming down cause you’re screwing up your daughter. Take her anxiety at anything less than perfection as a warning sign not an accomplishment.

            1. Yea, hi, I could be your daughter in 25 years. I have been struggling with major, at times crippling, anxiety and depression all of my life because of the increidbly high expectations I put on myself because of the praise I received for being the all-star at school. I tried committing suicide when I didn’t get into the graduate school of my choice. I stopped eating my first year in college because it wasn’t as good of a school as I wanted to go to and I was miersable. I struggled with disordered eating for 10 yeras and now, thankfully, have a healthy approach to eating and exerise.

               After many, many years of therapy and medication, I now realize that being good, not exceptional, at things is a-okay. I have finally learned that the world won’t completely collapse around me if I don’t get a A, or win the competition, or any number of very high standards I have set for myself.

               I’m not trying to unnecessarily scare you, but you should really focus on helping your daughter reframe her thinking and help her be okay with “failure.” Help her readjust her expectations to be more reasonable, help her learn that your love is not predicated on her academic/competitive success.

            2. Oh sweet jesus, no edit button + phone = massive typos. Sorry y’all.

            3. Gah, Anon4this, I totally empathize. I had a similar upbringing, which resulted in my attaching all myself worth to perfection and high performance. Hahahah that is a recipe for disaster. Several catastrophes and $15,000+ worth of mental health care later, I’m doing better.

               To OP: I recommend Brene Brown’s work, specifically her books The Gift of Imperfection and Daring Greatly. For both you and your daughter. And tons of the other high achievers on this board ;)

            4. Okay, I think it’s a little harsh to accuse the OP of screwing up her daughter. We’re all trying to do the best we can, and kids don’t come with an instruction manual.

               That said, she sounds like she is under an immense amount of pressure from both you and herself. Watch her like a hawk for signs of eating disorders especially as she reaches middle school, and consider taking her to therapy to talk through anxiety issues and learn to manage her stress.

               My sister and I were put under a similar amount of pressure from our mom always telling us how smart we were. How capable we were. How we blew standardized tests out of the water. How we were reading at x number of grades ahead. That Bs were not acceptable when we were capable of getting As. She checked our homework and we had to re-do it until it was perfect. She thought she was being supportive, but it felt very critical. Being “gifted” and “above average” can be a heavy heavy burden. My sister and I were both held to absurd expectations. My sister suffered from depression and I had significant anxiety issues. We’re both now in our 30s and healthier and happier. Neither of us are interested in pushing our children in the way we were pushed. If they are average and mentally healthy, that will be a bigger success than if they are the valedictorians who are about to have a nervous breakdown.

               It’s one thing to support and encourage a gifted child. It’s quite another to describe a child who gets all As as performing “below expectations”. Or criticizing her athletic performance. Or considering completely upending your career to “help” her with her homework because you think she’s about to fail fourth grade because she’s only reading one grade level ahead.

               Also, if I were you, I’d stop making them food. Sounds like a hassle and a waste of time. If she eats chicken nuggets every night while you’re gone, she’s still going to be totally fine.

            5. I wasn’t trying to accuse the OP of screwing up her daughter, I certainly know no one is perfect and I believe the OP wants to do the absolutely best she can for her daughter. I just know that a 4th grader with anxiety is something that should be managed as it has the potential, certainly not an absolute here, to become worse than it already is.

               I am me, her daughter is not me, her daughter will be fine, but she came here and posted her story and I posted one as well. Of course there are 100s of other factors that go into someone becoming as screwed up as I was, but her daugther sounds a lot like me when I was younger. Is it going to ruin her daughter’s life if she doesn’t get into an Ivy? Of course not. Is it going to ruin her daughter’s life if she doesn’t get into the advanced HS program? Of course not. As a parent, I believe it is the OP’s job to EXPLAIN that to her daugther and to teach her daughter to manage expectations, stress, etc.

            6. Yep. I was the kid who always performed above expectations and panicked if I didn’t get an A. I was the kid with the near perfect test scores who got into the fancy schools. My brother was the normal kid, who maybe didn’t care about school enough to perform up to his intellectual ability. We’re both doing well in our chosen careers, but guess who’s happier and healthier about it?

               Stop pushing your daughter. Learning to succeed involves much more than the types of external achievements who are validated in school.

         2. I don’t think you should be okay with her not being two grade levels ahead if that’s where she and you both want her to be. I would probably put her in a different school that will challenge her.

            I was a lot like your daughter as a kid, and my parents pushed me to work hard and succeed but also worked really hard to give me some perspective and help me develop the skills I needed to deal with stress and anxiety. As I grew up I learned that striving to be the best and a total overachiever didn’t mean that I needed to be stressed out about failing. She can learn to be chill without it harming her mental and emotional health, and I really think that being okay with the prospect of failure has enabled me to perform better and achieve more. That wouldn’t have happened if I/my parents had stopped caring so much about achievement.

            In short, I think her anxiety is a warning sign, but it means you should help her learn how to manage stress and anxiety, not that you should encourage her to not try so hard.

            1. Thanks for this and also to Anon4this above. I would really love to help her learn to deal with failure better, but I’m not sure how. She is a textbook example of the Dweck “fixed mindset,” despite everything we have tried to do to avoid this–e.g., praising effort and improvement, never telling her she’s smart.

            2. You are telling her that straight As aren’t enough and so she has to spend her summer in a study skills class. She’s going to pick up on that. You’re clearly a loving parent who cares a ton; focus on that and not on arbitrary markers of academic achievement.

            3. Exactly anon, exactly.

            4. Like Anon 10:54 a.m said, the study skills camp is IMO implicitly telling her that whatever she is already doing is not enough and that her straight As is not good enough. If it were all good enough, why would she need study skills class? Was it her idea? If it was,then you say it’s not necessary and she is doing great or however you want to present it. She is in fourth grade, I cannot imagine why a fourth grader needs study skills class. She is 9/10 years old, if she asks you to go to study skills class you can say no. My mother taught advanced acadmic 5th graders in one of the best school districts in the country, their homework was not hard enough for it to require parental involvement or a study skills class.

               You need to help her dial it back and help her understand that just because her friend is learning Chinese over the summer (!!!) does not mean that she needs to do the same. Instead of not overtly putting the pressure on her to get straight As, which you say you are not doing, you need to reinforce that you will love her regardless of whether she gets a C or an A and that you are proud of her whether she gets a C or an A.

               I am anxious thinking about everything this kid has going on.

            5. I’ll admit that learning to deal with failure was a long and difficult journey. I think for me this was in the broader context of me finding it difficult to accept things I can’t control. My dad used to always tell me that you can control the effort but not the outcome, and while it’s amazing how much of a difference the effort can make, it’s never a sure thing. At 27 I’m finally fully internalizing this and getting what he meant. I think the other thing that helped a lot was that in our house, it was really about the process of learning. My dad would talk to me about his work or something that he had been reading about, I would do the same, and we’d get into conversations like that. I think it helped me value what I was learning for its own sake and not just as scores on a report card. It probably also helped me appreciate how all this knowledge could be relevant to me beyond just tests and papers. I also don’t think it’s the worst thing in the world to tell her she’s smart occasionally. Maybe it’ll help her feel like if she doesn’t get a perfect score on a test, it’s not a reflection of her smarts. Maybe praise her for being “capable” instead of smart? Looking back, I think that sentiment was empowering to me.

               On a side note, I agree that she needs to learn to succeed in less than ideal circumstances, but I think that means she need to learn to succeed without a helicopter parent, not that she needs to learn to succeed in a school that doesn’t challenge her. In the latter case, the issue isn’t that the circumstances aren’t “ideal,” it’s that the opportunities aren’t really there for her to keep learning at her own pace. That’s a problem. To me this is different than letting her grow to be flexible and independent, which you definitely should do. Don’t be such a helicopter parent, but make sure she’s getting the opportunities she needs to succeed.

               Maybe get a tutor? Make sure she understands that it’s because she’s smart and awesome and you want her to be able to learn even more than she already is and not because she’s falling behind. I think if you’re honest she won’t suspect that you feel like she’s failing.

               On a side note, I think that people are way too quick to value happiness over achievement. It doesn’t always need to be one or the other. One of my best sources of fulfillment is achievement and everything that it’s enabled (having really great intellectual discussions, going to school and working with super smart people who challenge me and make me think differently, better.) I wouldn’t have been able to engage on the things I do at the level I do without studying so hard and emphasizing achievement so much. Seriously, it’s a rush. I get that people find fulfillment in a lot of different ways, but happiness, fulfillment, and achievement don’t always need to be at odds with one another. It did take me awhile to really enjoy learning and studying rather than doing it to get perfect grades. It was worth it though, and I’d also make sure you try to help your daughter with this. Also, she’s in elementary school. She will grow and change :)

            6. +1. As a former “gifted” kid, staying at the appropriate level of challenge is really important. I disagree with the other commenters who are saying “It’s okay, she’s still one grade level ahead.” The point is not to compare herself with all of the other students, the point is that she should be making progress at her own pace, which sounds like it’s faster than average, and the school should be supporting her in that.

               I took a lot of crap as a kid for being “so driven,” and my parents took a lot of crap for supposedly pushing me hard. In retrospect, a lot of other parents/family members were working through their own sh*t by projecting it onto me and my family. Though my parents did have high expectations, it was really more about my own desire for challenge, and the fact that I would shut down pretty quickly in the classroom and at home if I wasn’t always stretching myself. I wonder if something similar is going on with OP’s daughter–that she needs a certain level of intensity to stay on track, and isn’t getting it from her dad or her teachers.

               And signing the daughter up for study skills, if messaged appropriately, doesn’t communicate disappointment to the kid. It will help her take ownership of her own education and work through her less-than-adaptive behaviors. I wish I had had something like that, to be honest–I attended K-12 in less-than-great public schools, got good grades without having rigorous study skills because I picked up on the material quickly, then went off to a challenging college and had no processes and skills in place to work through material that didn’t come easily to me, so had a disastrous freshman year. I then had to spend a ton of time in tutoring for study skills, which was a huge drag at the time, but in retrospect one of the best time investments I’ve ever made, as it’s given me tools I’ve needed in graduate school and the workplace. If I’d had that sooner, college would have gone much more smoothly for me both academically and psychologically.

            7. Anonymous at 12:50, you have hit the nail on the head regarding why I am concerned about her study skills and academic performance. She is bored in school and if she isn’t feeling challenged, she stops paying attention and writes halfhearted answers or makes careless errors. When I was a kid I was incredibly bored in school too, but had no parental support or encouragement so I just checked out mentally. I aced all the standardized tests but never did my homework, and I never learned to study or to work hard at anything until I was in grad school, which I didn’t attend until several years after graduating from college because I hadn’t figured out what I wanted to do with my life. If my parents had supported me in learning good work habits and had encouraged me to pursue my interests, my life would have been much different and I would have been a much happier child and young adult. I don’t want my daughter to suffer the same fate. She has a subject she’s passionate about and is still mostly engaged in school, and I want her to keep working hard and pursue her passion even if that changes over the years.

            8. Your problem is with the school. Your daughter is fine.

            9. Why not help her find ways to pursue that passion independently and in groups outside of school then? Why make it all about being perfect in every single thing she does, which is what it’s sounding like here?

               And better to take a few years to figure out what you want to do than to end up doing something you don’t want because you don’t know anything other than compulsive achievement.

         3. Honestly, some kids are just early bloomers. Just because she’s two grade levels ahead in reading when she’s in second grade doesn’t mean that she will be her whole life. I was a very early bloomer, reading chapter books by kindergarten, etc and if I kept up that pace I’d be some kind of genius now (which I am not, and it is fine that I am not). Things ebb and flow and sometimes she will be ahead and sometimes she will not. Just let her get used to it. You can push her academically, but I don’t think it usually makes people happier or more successful in life.

            FWIW, I think that having her take her own responsibility for her homework, studying, etc is a good skill for her to learn. Let her not do a perfect job and congratulate her for doing it by herself. If they’re not teaching a 10 year old how to do a bibliography at school, they probably don’t really care much about how she does one. They may just want her to read a book or an article, think about it, and write stuff down rather than write some intense research paper. Maybe you can talk to the teacher to get some reassurance on what type of output is expected, it is probably way below what you are imagining.

            1. That bibliography thing struck me, too.

               “Example 2: The kids are assigned to do research projects without being taught how to find sources, take notes on relevant information, organize the notes, structure and outline the report, or prepare a bibliography.”

               Don’t confuse y0ur knowledge of research and citations with what a 10 year old show do or know how to do. She’ll learn that over time. I don’t think I was formally taught research methods until 8th grade. Maybe 9th. That’s not the point of these kinds of assignments in 4th grade. And she won’t be behind for not having learned those things at that age.

            2. Oh, I’m not asking her to use APA or Bluebook. But the teacher sends out a rubric saying there must be a bibliography and at least four sources cited, and then doesn’t teach the kids how to use the library catalog and format their bibliography?

            3. Your kid can figure out how to check a book out from the library and write down the name of the book, I promise. It is extremely simple. If the school district is so good, surely there’s a librarian if she gets confused. Not worth worrying about. Part of life is learning to figure out how to do stuff she doesn’t know how to do.

            4. +1

               I am worried for this poor child.

               This is just cray.

               My 10 year old niece this summer is going on vacation, taking swimming lessons, going to a few silly “camps”, and mostly…. just being a kid.

               Just encourage your daughter to read, get outside and play and be active and have friends, and to relax and enjoy her young life. She is smart. She will be fine.

         4. Have you read “How To Raise an Adult” by Julie Lythcott Haimes? Its really good. Its about how not to over-parent, which it sounds like you don’t want to do. Your kid can figure out (or not) how to get the help she needs from Dad, or just do a little less well in school and sports when you are gone. The book explains how, for lack of a better term, “leaning out” in terms of high pressure parenting is actually better for the kids in the long run. I found it very reassuring and went from checking my kids homework every night, to only engaging when they asked (I also travel and hubby also parents differently than I do), and their grades didn’t change at all — but what did change is the stress level of our house after dinner. And now if one kid forgets to study for a test and gets a bad grade, then well she doesn’t like it and remembers next time. Much better to figure this stuff out now while they are younger. Good luck.

            1. Thank you for parenting your children this way. Kids need to learn consequences early. Daughter doesn’t study when mom’s gone, gets a bad grade, and doesn’t like it? Well, she knows what she needs to do differently next time. That is a developmentally-appropriate learning opportunity for a 4th grader.

               Also…FOURTH GRADE. I would be appalled if we were having this conversation about a tenth grader. FOURTH GRADE Y’ALL. This is CRAZY.

            2. What is funny to me about this whole discussion is that I have always thought of myself the most hands-off, free-range, unhelicoptery parent at the school. Her friends’ moms think I am crazy because I have been sending her to sleepaway camp for years and let her ride her bike around the neighborhood. She has been ordering for herself in restaurants basically since she could talk. When she forgot her homework at school I told her she would just have to take the zero (although the teacher let her do the assignment at recess). She does more chores than her friends. It’s not that she doesn’t study when I am gone–she does. I’m just not sure whether she is not studying effectively, or not doing her best on the actual test because she’s mad that I’m gone.

               Thanks, everyone, for the perspective. And Emeralds, am I correct in guessing that you are at the fancy private university in your city? I used to work at another fancy private university and had to deal with the helicopter parents’ kids too.

            3. The current parenting standards in America really appall me. Sorry to have gone all caps-lock. It’s so obvious that you are fighting the good fight against the tide of madness.

               I’m at the university whose mascot would not haunt your nightmares :) So you’d think my students would have more life skills, and a lot of them do. But a lot of them don’t. Most of our parents are okay, but I had a father yell at me because I told him it was appropriate for his adult, college-aged student to be sending emails to follow up on her acceptance into a program, instead of him. No. Just no. I had a lot more helicopter parents at my previous institution, though.

         5. She reads above grade level. There is no reason for her to get any better than that. I am not even sure that a reading teacher of gifted students would agree with this idea.

   4. Don’t think of this is letting your daughter down. What you are really doing is giving her an opportunity to become more flexible and independent. Every child is going to have ups and downs for a gazillion different reasons. If you think your travel is bothering her, PLEASE DON’T SAY THAT TO HER. That will only give you guilt and allow her to blame you if it happens again.

      Focus on the good that comes from your travel. You child and her dad get to spend time together one-on-one. He has incentive to get to games that he might not go to otherwise. They can have dinner together and set up a different (maybe better, maybe worse) homework routine. Your daughter might learn how to study better on her own.

      You cannot and should not try to fix everything or take responsibility for everything in your daughter’s life. Let the other moms do their kids homework. And take pride in the work that your child does independently!

      1. +1

   5. I mean this with love, but you sound like a helicopter parent. You need to give your daughter room to grow and make mistakes. She will not always perform perfectly and she needs to learn how to pick herself back up. I don’t believe parents should help much with kid’s schoolwork, beyond ensuring that it is complete. My parents both have science PhDs and both helped me a lot with math and science classes in high school. I ultimately learned the material and did well on tests and AP exams that I took without their help, but I did not learn how to study. When I went to a top college, it was a huge shock and adjustment. I was smart, but unlike all my peers, I did not know how to study or problem solve because I had always asked my parents to explain the concepts I didn’t understand. My parents now recognize they did me a huge disservice (although they were doing their best).

      Talk with your husband and make sure you’re on the same page about her bedtime. He’s her dad, not some teenage baby-sitter. It’s not your fault if she’s struggling while you’re gone. He needs to step up and take 50% of the responsibility for her performance. Make sure you’re in agreement that school comes before sport and she has to miss practice if she won’t have time to get her homework done after practice and get to bed at a reasonable time. Honestly, based on this and your prior posts, it’s sound like you’re letting her put the sport before school. If that’s what you and your husband and daughter all want, that’s your prerogative, but I think most people on this board would caution you that it is a mistake. Unless she is the one in a million that wins and Olympic medal, she’s going to need her education much more than the sport for the next 60+ years of her life. Sports are hobbies not jobs, and it sounds like you’re letting your daughter treat this sport like her job and work everything else in around it.

      As for the stuff about missing competitions – you’ve posted about this before, no? I think I did a same or similar sport and parents miss competitions. It happens. She will become a much stronger, more independent person if she knows you can’t be at every single event. And no parent can be. My mom was a SAHM but she still occasionally missed events because of family emergencies or things like that. It’s not like you’re never showing up to her events. You missed ONE. You’re not doing yourself or your daughter a favor by beating yourself up about that.

      1. One thing about this: not the OP, but I feel like sitters take instruction about how things in the house are done (bedtime is at 8:30; homework before cookies) but my husband just lets things slide.

         I don’t know if he doesn’t get it, doesn’t care, or is incompetent. I have honestly thought about going to therapy on his checking out of home responsibilities beyond picking up the kids and feeding them when I have to travel for work.

         Lunchboxes go unemptied. Homework unchecked. Notes home unread.

         1. Yes. I can’t blame my husband because he is a good guy and is honestly trying.

         2. Gosh that sounds harsh. Yes, my husband often does things radically differently than I do when I am out of town. But the critical things get done and the kids think it’s kind of fun to do things differently for a change or let some of the usual rules slide. And to be fair, I sometimes let things slide when he is gone because it’s just harder when there is only one parent at home. Even more so when relating to the duties that parent isn’t usually responsible for (i.e. my husband usually takes one kid to school and I take the other, when we switch things up I inevitably forget something the other kid needs because it’s not part of my usual routine).

   6. I am not a parent, but I am reading Ron Fournier’s book Love That Boy and I wholoeheartedly recommend you pick up a copy and read it on your next trip. It talks a lot about parents’ expectations.

      FWIW, I agree with LawDawg.

      1. Not a parent either, but you might get some good info out of the book Mindset by Carol Dweck. It talks a lot about children’s expectations and how they deal with failure and success.

   7. Does any of this matter? Who cares if she has a bad sporting event? Who cares if she does bad on a test? Why are you teaching her and prepping her so much instead if just letting school do its job? Why are you leaving healthy meals? Does your husband not have hands?

      1. + 1 “Does your husband not have hands?”.

         This, 1000% times over.

      2. THIS. SO MUCH T HIS.

   8. Your daughter needs to learn how to be independent. You can’t follow her to college so that she gets better grades. Don’t hold yourself to the impossible standard of attending every competition. She’s got to get used to your occasional absence sometime.

      “When I travel, I leave healthy meals in the fridge for my husband and daughter to eat and a detailed schedule of what is happening each day.”

      Seems like husband is the one you need to talk to. It sounds like you do so much caretaking that without you, the wheels would fall off for both of them. The issue probably isn’t that you leave, it’s that your husband apparently can’t pick up the pieces. Talk to husband to see where actual disruptions can be reduced- late bed times, poor eating, too much tv rather than homework time. Let your child learn to self-sooth in your absence and figure out how to do her own homework. If your husband cannot provide all of the intellectual support you think she needs to get her school work done, consider hiring a tutor.

      “and it doesn’t seem fair that I’m depriving my daughter of support and opportunity just so I can jet all over the country doing my job.”

      And what kinds of opportunities would she have if you didn’t have a job? She’s gonna be just fine.

      1. As a mom, I totally get not wanting your daughter to fail or be disappointed due to your travel (in solidarity/sympathy, not in blame)… but realistically, I agree with others that she needs to be able to succeed in not-ideal circumstances. Think of this as a preferred opportunity to tough her up in a relatively consequence-free environment versus when she’s in college and away from home for the first time?

      2. I haven’t read all the comments but I just wanted to say two things:

         1) My mom worked when I was a kid (a lot) and my dad would let things slide at home. Like we were fed and healthy but he wasn’t so concerned about everything being perfect. I wasn’t always happy with it as a kid but looking back, I realize how good it was for me, as a working woman, to grow up with an example of a busy and ambitious working mother.

         2) My parents were very tough on me academically (much more so than my sister), probably because I was bright and academically inclined. As an adult now, I suffer from anxiety and perfectionism and it negatively impacts my day to day functioning in a manner I’m trying to fix in therapy. My sister is not similarly afflicted, and I think a huge part of that is that she didn’t have the same pressures as I did. I understand wanting the best for your kids but it doesn’t always work out the way you hope.

         1. Just to offer a different perspective: my mom was very tough on me academically and had the highest of expectations for me, even though she was a high school graduate herself. For example, an A- was not acceptable. I did extremely well and had none of the anxiety/depression/perfectionism that others are talking about. I’m also Asian, and so this mindset is pervasive in our culture and so maybe that has something to do it. Anyways, I wanted to pipe in just to say that you’re not dooming your child to a life of depression for having high expectations.

            With that said, I completely agree with others that kids need to have fun and do non-academic stuff, especially during the summer.

            1. @Wow, I had the same experience in that my parents were very demanding and an A- was not ok, and if I got 100 on a test they asked “was there no possibility of extra credit!?” I’m not Asian but I am Jewish, and our culture has similar “Tiger Mom” values. And in general I think a lot of non-Jewish, non-Asian Americans are waaaay too easy on their kids when it comes to school and are satisfied with Bs when the student could be getting As if they worked harder.
               But OP sounds like she is demanding more than getting straight As (which her daughter is already doing!). She is putting her straight-A student in a study skills camp over the summer!! I had demanding parents, but if I did what I was supposed to do, I was allowed to have fun on school breaks and go to summer camp and to the park with my friends and thinks like that. I don’t think high expectations are bad, but I think this level of pressure is bad, especially so early in her schooling career. There’s a time for pressure and a focus on “productive” summer activities and it’s high school, not elementary school. Burnout is a real thing, and this much pressure this early is a recipe for disaster. And I say that as someone who was definitely Tiger Mom-ed.

            2. I’m south Asian and I totally agree that most parents are way too easy on their kids in school. There are plenty of ways to balance pushing kids to succeed and other things like friends, fun, etc.

            3. yes!! Indian here and I’m so surprised by how low the expectations were of my non-Asian friend’s parents. Like, they would get congratulated for getting a B or even a C(!). I’m happy my parents pushed me as hard as they did.

               The Tiger Mom book is certainly extreme but there was a lot in it that I related to and if you haven’t read it, it’s worth a read. One thing that really resonated with me is this idea that parents should not praise their kids for every little thing. I hardly got praise from my parents growing up and when I did, I knew that it was really meaningful. It made me work harder.

         2. I wish I could suffer a bit from perfectionism. I just DGAF.

         3. #2 is me and my sister. HA!

         4. Agree with the “tiger cubs” here. My parents had much higher expectations for me than they were on my two younger siblings, because I’m more academically inclined and more competitive. My sister has a healthy amount of self-motivation so has been fine, though perhaps less directed than she could be, but my brother has not achieved anywhere near what he could academically thus far (though he’s young, so there’s still time). He would have benefited from much more structure and expectation from the family.

   9. I have three kids and the third one just finished fourth grade. They all do their homework 100% on their own. I have never, not once, reviewed their homework for them. When I get home from work, we have a check in conversation about how much they have for that night and if it’s going to be hard to get it done by bedtime. When they have needed extra help in math, they have gone to their teachers and set up a time to work with them.

      Why in the world would it be necessary to have exam prep experience to help with fourth grade math? What level sports is your child playing that “worst performance” is even an issue?

      I suggest you back off. If she is having trouble with her school assignments, I would start by talking to her teachers, not with going all Tiger Mom on your husband. Teaching your child to advocate for herself, and take responsibility for talking to her teachers when she is having trouble, is a valuable life skill.

      This is FOURTH GRADE. How are you planning to deal with high school, if elementary school is causing you this much consternation?

      1. Do your kids’ schools check their homework? I was honestly shocked when I found out that our school does not. I am hoping that this is an oddity and not how all schools work these days.

         I guess I was thinking that if I helped her learn strong study skills and organizational habits now, she would be able to take 100% responsibility for herself in high school. I don’t want to be a tiger mom/helicopter parent–I just feel like I have no other choice because the school explicitly makes parents responsible for functions the school ought to be performing (checking homework–what is the point of doing homework if you don’t identify and learn from your mistakes?). The stakes are also so high. I think it’s nuts that high school eligibility depends on what math class the kid takes in fourth grade, but that’s the system we have to work with.

         1. You keep saying “The school requires the parents to check homework”
            What do the TEACHERS require? I’m sure they go over the homework.
            Also — what does “check” mean? It seems to me you could point out questions for your child to ask the teacher about the process, without changing the answer or doing it for her (I’m sure you don’t do this, anyway). Get clear on the CLASSROOM expectations – might be different from the school.

            1. They score on completion only. They do not check whether the answers are correct. Both of her fourth-grade teachers are this way. The third-grade teacher had the kids check each other’s work for errors.

            2. There are sound pedagogical reasons for only checking for completion v. checking for accuracy. Perhaps talk to your child’s teachers about your concerns and see if you can understand why they are functioning the way they are.

            3. The fact that they only score on completion doesn’t mean they expect the parents to check for correctness. You’re putting that pressure on yourself. I don’t see anything that indicates this school is a crazy pressure cooker.
               FWIW, when I was in elementary school (20+ years ago) my homework was only checked for completion and I scored a 1540/1600 on the SAT and went to an Ivy League college. If your daughter is getting straight As and testing above grade level, she’s doing fine. Way more than fine. Even if you think she’s putting pressure on herself, I would suspect that she’s internalizing all your stress and anxiety. Breathe. I think you need to work on your own anxiety, because freaking about the academic performance of an ELEMENTARY schooler who is getting straight As and testing above grade-level is kind of batsh!t crazy, even for the tigerist of Tiger Moms.

            4. Could you ask the teacher for answer sheets so you can check the work without doing the math? Could you check the work each weekend instead of nightly? Could she pair up with another kid and each check the other’s work and only come to you or the other parent where they didn’t get the same answer?

         2. By the way, there is ZERO evidence that homework in elementary is beneficial. If fact, it was often not, as it led to (surprise, surprise) stress at home, unnecessary pressure on kids, etc. My daughter’s teacher gave it out in third grade. She didn’t do it at home, I didn’t make her (I see her little enough that I’m sure as hell not going to spend what little time I get while she’s awake fighting over math worksheets) and she’s still doing just fine.

         3. SHE IS NINE. Her brain isn’t capable of being organized. The best thing for your child is to let her play afterschool.

   10. Yes, this is my 7th grader. Most of the time a perfect angel, the but twice in the last quarter I have gotten calls from school about her acting out while I was gone. The last one was on Friday afternoon as I was in line to board the plane. I can’t tell if she thinks she can get away with it while I’m gone or if she feels like she needs the extra attention…

   11. The big problem here seems to be your husband. Why is this all your responsibility? It sounds like you have a job that’s as high-earning and demanding as his, if not more so, so why are you the only one who has to help her with homework, enforce a bedtime, attending every sports competition and on top of that, stock the fridge with healthy meals? I have some problems with Lean In, but one of the more interesting parts of that book is where Sheryl Sandberg talks about how you have to let your partner tackle tasks that you normally do, even if you’re worried that they’re not going to do them perfectly. You have a job that requires a lot of travel. You can’t always be helping her with her homework and sitting in the stands at every competition. You have to let your husband do that stuff and trust that they will survive and he will get better at it over time. People are intelligent and can learn how to do things. My husband couldn’t turn on an oven when I met him and now cooks dinner for us five or six nights a week.
       Bottom line – if your husband won’t step up and do this stuff, you need marriage counseling. If he’s willing but you won’t let him because you’re worried he won’t do it the exact same way you do it, you need individual therapy/anxiety treatment.

       1. I hear the concern as well re: your husband. Two things: (1) Are you two on the same page regarding parenting? If not, address that first and foremost. (2) Sounds like you need to back off a bit. Stop making him/them meals. Stop doing everything and being everything for both of them. Give them room to succeed and fail and feel the repercussions of their actions. So you don’t make a meal and they end up eating cereal. That’s not the worst. Stop leaving a detailed schedule. Let them figure it out. If you trust your husband, its time to let him parent differently than you.

          1. Amen. Too many moms don’t realize that their way isn’t the right way or the only way. I hate seeing moms b*tch and moan about how little their husbands do, only to constantly criticize how their husbands do anything, including public mockery on social media.

   12. I think you are conflating a lot of separate and distinct issues here…
       Your traveling is distinct from your husband’s parenting style is distinct from your daughter’s (questionably) acting out is distinct from your belief that her school is subpar.
       The reality is you have a high-performing daughter who is getting straight As and is involved in competitive sports. But remember, she’s also.. 9? 10?
       And you know what really matters at that age? Not that she gets 99% of her math homework correct. Not that she takes home first place at her gym meet or track event. Not that she tests two grade levels ahead in reading instead of one. It’s that she’s engaged and excited about learning. It’s that she’s learning how to be a part of a team. It’s that she’s learning to take care of herself.
       Your gifted, high-performing daughter won’t stop being those things because dad takes her to get fast food after practice or because her teachers don’t mark her homework up with an A++. She’ll stop being those things because she’s 10 years old and burning out from the constant reaching and struggle to do more, test better, outperform everyone else.
       Here’s something to consider… Maybe she doesn’t test well enough to get into the best high school. And that means she doesn’t get into Harvard. Or maybe she does test well enough. But she still doesn’t get into Harvard. Most of us don’t have an elite high school, Harvard undergrad, Yale Law, Supreme Court clerkship, White Glove law firm story… and we’re doing great!
       Be easy on yourself, be easy on your husband, be easy on your daughter. And try to focus on what really matters here. You have a healthy, happy, engaged daughter who is doing well at school, enjoying sports, and spending time with her family. Focus on making that last.

       1. THIS. And even if your singular focus is getting her into Harvard, I’m not convinced that this level of pressure at the age of 10 is the right thing. By telling your straight-A, high-achieving fourth grader that she’s not good enough academically, you’re setting yourself up for a high schooler who is going to flame out in a spectacular way and end up at a state school or even (GASP!) community college. Or worse…on drugs, pregnant or suicidal. I’ve seen it happen. Being a burned out high schooler who hates learning is going to harm her chances of Harvard admission much more than the fact that she didn’t simultaneously learn Chinese and Russian when she was 10.

          1. The flame out is the worst. My highschool BBF had parents like this, the goal was med school. In her first year of pre-med she developed a coke problem and ran away to the Ukraine. From what I can tell she is still there and living with some industry tycoon billionaire.

             1. This happened to a girl on my hall first year (albeit without the Ukrainian oil tycoon…). I think she bounced back eventually, but it was not pretty to watch.

                She also arrived at college with no life skills because Mommy and Daddy had taken care of everything her entire life, so she could focus on being a brilliant little genius. Her dorm room literally reeked of unwashed clothing and spoiled food because she’d never learned how to clean or do laundry. Obviously an extreme example, but this is not the future you want for your child.

             2. Did anyone ever watch that fairly mediocre movie “Accepted” about the kids who make a fake college when none of them are accepted to a real one? One of the characters had crazy high pressure parents and didn’t get into Yale, which was the only school she applied to. She had a complete breakdown and ended up teaching yoga and enjoying herself for the first time in her life.

                I always think of that character when I think about flaming out.

             3. I’m sorry for your friend, but that is a hilarious/amazing story.

             4. I check her Instagram every few months to make sure shes okay. While the lifestyle certainly isn’t sustainable she seems happier than when she was under the pressure of her parents. Part of me is a little sad though that she must see most of us have degrees and families now and she doesn’t.

             5. Maybe she’s thrilled she’s avoiding your life.

             6. @Anon 1:11 if she was gallivanting around without a drug problem I’d be inclined to agree.

          2. OMG this.

             My friend was super ambitious and then ended up at Stanford and now builds houses of worship in Africa. Being her friend helped me channel my abilities to tangible results in highschool but I don’t think her parents expected her to “flame out” and become a missionary.

             As for myself, my mom experienced this and didn’t want it for her own kids, so we got to watch TV after school all the time. We did get asked about the B+s and A-s in middle school and such, but didn’t truly learn to ask myself what MY passions and desires were until I was a practicing lawyer and in a toxic environment. Going through that at 30 sucked.

             Anyway, teaching children/ourselves resilience and how to deal with failure/let downs at a young age, in a safe environment seems MUCH MORE USEFUL than straight As, IMHO.

   13. I went to a high-pressure school like this, where there was a lot of social pressure from the other parents to push their kids, and a lot of competition over the kids’ achievements. I am now, in some ways, a burnout at 30. I’m tired. The most valuable lessons I learned in college were not academic, they were things like “how to have fun” and “it’s okay to not be perfect”. The single best thing you can do as a parent to your daughter is to give her lots of validation for the perspective that a lot of the pressure is just noise, and that you love her, not her accomplishments. I don’t think there’s any doubt, btw, that you are a GREAT mom and that you think a lot of the pressures are kind of ridiculous. But maybe un-enrolling from the study skills camp could prove to be a valuable lesson? Maybe try to be the “good enough mom” instead of the “world’s best”? FWIW, I am a HYS graduate and have what most people consider a high-powered career, and I struggle mightily with imposter syndrome and anxiety in the workplace because of years of perfectionism and people-pleasing as a kid. My husband and I have made clear to each other that one of our family’s biggest values is loving people and ourselves the way we are, awesomely imperfect. Help her rebel against this keeping-up-with-the-Joneses re: achievements and schools and grades and extracurriculars mindset. It will do both of you a tremendous service. I’ve found great help in free-range parenting resources.

   14. Does she get along with Dad?

       My dad was very high stress/chaotic, and mom was the mediator. The few times she left, I stressed about it constantly.

       1. Hmm. They get along fine, but I know my travel stresses him out.

          1. OK, if he’s stressed, odds of him being kind of a tough person to deal with are a little higher.

             Maybe you can talk to her about why she’s suddenly crying about you going away on trips. That part sticks out to me as a red flag.

   15. Parents aren’t teachers and if we have to help with homework then it isn’t appropriate. Tell the school that it is too much and that your child needs time to do other things in the evening. There is zero benefit to highschool homework.

   16. Take all of this with a grain of salt, because my likely high acheiver hasn’t started kindergarten. We are planning on public school for various reasons. If we find it isn’t challenging or on her level, we plan on doing various “after school” educational stuff with her. However, for us we want to make sure these things are fun and don’t feel like drudgery for her.

       We use Khan Academy for math. It’s gamified, so she thinks she’s playing a game. Your fourth grader would see through that, but she may enjoy the challenges, and the ability to learn from someone other than mom. She can use it to get ahead in math if the school isn’t provide what she needs.

       Do you still read aloud to her? Kids need to be read to at higher levels than they can read on their own. Many parents and teachers stop reading aloud in later elementary school. Perhaps this is why her reading level has not improved. Check out Jim Trealease’s Read Aloud Handbook, and the blog whatwedoallday (for great book lists for reading aloud). Reading aloud can be fun for the whole family, and you could possibly do it over the phone while on your work trips. It might be a fun way to connect while traveling.

       Have you checked out the state laws for highly capable kids? These laws are rapidly changing and my state now requires services for these kids, which was new last year.

       Finally, have you considered just not doing the homework? We have discussed that if something is working for us with the school, we would meet with the teachers and say that kid is not going to do math homework, but will do Khan Academy math instead. Sacrificing an A in math for actual learning. But we are rebels like that.

       I agree with other posters about addressing anxiety issues, but wanted to encourage you to think outside the box. Highly capable kids have their own set of challenges, both academically and socially/ emotionally. Good luck (and I don’t thing you are the worlds worst mom)

   17. OK, I haven’t read through all the comments, because the more info gets added, the more this hurts me. For reference: I (and my siblings) were all identified as highly gifted children. We went to a good public school. My mom was a SAHM, but helicopter parenting wasn’t a thing yet when I was a kid, and elementary schools still expected you to spend your afternoon playing outside, not doing 4 hours of homework, so I spent my summers riding my bike around the neighborhood and going to sleep-away YMCA camp. My mom eventually became a gifted education teacher and teaches — you guessed it, — 4th grade. She would be horrified if she read this thread. If you have not done so already, I encourage you to research the social/emotional/academic needs of gifted children. They’re often not well-supported in public schools where the focus tends to shift to lower performers, and there are a lot of misconceptions about what being “gifted” means.

       Your daughter’s school sounds awful. That type of pressure on a 4th grader is so inappropriate I don’t know where to start. The expectation that parents are so hyperinvolved in their kid’s school work is ridiculous; kids need to learn to 1. be intrinsically motivated 2. be self-sufficient and 3. accept consequences (good or bad) for their own actions. What you should do is provide your daughter a rich environment at home where she feels safe to explore her own interests, and succeed or fail, and learn or play as she wants to. There is nothing objectively better about learning Chinese and algebra than watching the worms in your backyard. Nothing. Let your kid be a kid. If she wants to get A’s, she’ll get A’s (I mostly got A’s), and she’ll ask for help if she runs into a sticky problem, but she needs to do it on her own, not because you’re coaching her and checking her homework.

       If she realizes that she actually loves [anything] better than school, make sure she knows it’s OK to focus her energy there too/instead, and that the world does not stop turning because she’s “not reaching her potential.” F her potential. Seriously. Potential means nothing, and relentless pursuit of it is the enemy of contentment (and mental health). The best thing my parents ever did for me was to NOT push back when I burnt out my freshman year of college and wanted to drop out and enlist in the military. I’m not going to say I’ve achieved everything I would have with a proper tiger mom, but I eventually graduated from a less-prestigious school and I’m doing pretty d@mn well if I do say so myself. Plus, I’m a happy, well-rounded person.

       TL/DR: You are not the world’s worst mom. Like all moms, you want what’s best for your daughter. But please, please realize that your daughter is more than her academic achievements and her “gifted” label, and that one of the best things you could do for her would be to help her understand that.

   18. You could see if you can get the parents’ organization to offer a showing/discussion of “Race to Nowhere” to the teachers, staff, and parents. My kids are in a high-pressure district that also has a lot of talk about mental/emotional wellness due to the pressure. I’m sure you aren’t the only parent at the school who thinks this is nuts; it would be especially good to get the administration involved in a conversation like this because what you are describing here does not sound normal or healthy to me. In my town, it’s the local anti-drug organization that sponsors a showing of this movie on a regular basis.

       And FWIW, my kids are in high school so I’m not out of the woods yet, but I completely stopped being involved with homework when they were in 5th grade. You might want to set up an initial meeting with her teacher in the fall to explain that you want to take a hands-off approach to her homework to encourage her to become self-reliant, and get the teacher’s buy-in, or at least find out if the teacher is again expecting you to grade homework.

       Re: tutors, my 8th grade son is having the best experience with a local math tutor. My son needs no help in math — but he just wasn’t getting a sense of enjoyment out the math classroom that he gets one-on-one with his tutor. He doesn’t see it at all as pressuring, he enjoys working with this guy so much. You have to find what works best for your kid.

       Also re: travel, I travel for my job and I remember when my daughter was in 5th grade as being a really bad year. She was still attached to me, and would cry and miss me so much when I was gone. That’s when I got her a cell phone so she could text me, and even if all I could do was respond with a smiley face because I was in a meeting, it helped her feel better. So it was hard but it passed, and of course now I miss those days because she’s in high school and obviously wants to hang out with her friends, not with me.

   19. It sounds like you might need to hire a private tutor for your daughter to check in with her on her homework and projects. Maybe a few times a week, an hour each time. My mom helped me with math when I was in school, but my mom is not fluent in English, so for English/reading, I had a private tutor once a week to help me with homework, help me get ahead on school work, and assign me writing and reading homework (vocabulary, journal entries, creative writing, essay writing, etc.). I think a tutor will also help challenge your kid if she doesn’t feel challenged at school and she doesn’t want to transfer schools. There are enrichment programs for middle and high schools that might be suitable for her if she wants something challenging later in her future. There are also enrichment programs for summer, like the Johns Hopkins talent search, and University of Washington’s Summer Challenge program through the Robinson Center for Young Scholars. Maybe for the summer you can look into those and see if she is interested in those types of classes.

       You’re not a bad mom – you just wish you could be there more, and that’s OK. I think it sounds like your daughter is a responsible kid who cares about her grades and doing well. As far as the issue with you traveling and her performance being lower than usual when you travel, maybe you can encourage her to Skype you before she goes to bed, etc., just to stay in touch. I think she probably just misses her mom. My dad was always traveling when I was in elementary school, but I would get to talk to him on the phone sometimes (but not all the time; he was usually in a different time zone), and it was okay.

       1. A private tutor for a child who makes As? How sick is that.

10. What % of your gross household income do you spend on housing (PITI, not including maintenance items)? It’d be helpful if you also included either your region or simply noted high/low/medium COL.

    Curious to see how far from the absurd mortgage approval numbers people go.

    1. We spend about 50% of our after-tax, after-retirement contribution income. But we are paying our mortgage really aggressively and are on track to pay off a $200,000 loan in 3-4 years. Our minimum payment (including taxes and insurance) is about 16% of our after-tax income, after-retirement income.

    2. We spend 13% of our take-home pay on housing. We live in a LCOL area in the SW.

    3. About 9%. We purposefully bought a less expensive property than we were qualified for, because we want to always be able to pay our fixed monthly expenses out of one of our two incomes.

       1. ETA: Moderately high COL (Philly-high, not NYC-high)

       2. Um, ETA again, I don’t know what PITI means but assumed it was something to do with pre-tax? Obviously my % would be higher after taxes.

          1. Principal, interest, taxes, insurance.

             1. Thanks! So my number stands – 9% pre tax, but about 15-16% (guesstimate) after.

          2. Don’t know what PITI means?!!?? Ummm I guess someone else handles the finances in your household…

             1. wow, thanks for that. Just bc I don’t speak every financial acronym, you jump to that conclusion! awesome!

             2. No, no excuses, PITI is not an obscure financial acronym, it is a basic term in mortgage arrangements, and not knowing it indicates that someone else is handling the ‘fine print’ of your mortgage for you.
                I guess I’m not wording this in a very diplomatic way, but I just felt the need to say something because women – and I am very much speaking for myself here as well as the broader community of women – need to get *much* better at the fundamentals of financial literacy.

             3. So despite that I know my monthly mortgage payment actually reflects the substance of “PITI” (as opposed to referring to it by that term) you continue to seek to embarrass in the guise of a PSA? How often do you actually use this acronym in daily life as opposed to the initial purchase/financing? Ugh.

             4. Umm, I have handled my finances for years & know that all those things are part of my housing costs, and I have never heard that term or heard anyone use it in everyday life.

             5. I’d never heard it nor until now had I even read it. I don’t have a mortgage.

    4. We spend roughly 10% of our gross income (15% of net) on housing, and we live in a large city in Florida. I have six figures of student loans. We could afford to spend more on our housing, but we’d rather put that money in savings, pay down debt, travel, do home improvement projects, and eat out at nice restaurants.

    5. If I am doing the math properly (questionable), I spend 15% of my gross monthly take home pay on my mortgage (PITI). I am in a LCOL on the East Cost/Mid-Atlantic.

       1. That percentage goes up to 28% if I calculate it based on my actual monthly take home pay.

    6. Currently, in a LCOL rustbelt city, about 10%. We will be moving to a mid-Atlantic, medium COL city next year, I anticipate that increasing to 15-17%.

       1. Oh, and that’s a 15 year mortgage for both. Though both are also cities where the taxes are the largest single chunk of PITI.

    7. A little over 30% of my after-tax, after-retirement income (house is in my name only), but less than 20% of combined ATAR income. Dallas suburb.

       1. That’s not gross though–what % of your top line income (before anything taken out)?

          1. 18% of top line income for just my salary, about 8.5% for combined.

    8. 10%. Very HCOL area. Deliberately did not stretch on house so to “fix” our housing costs (I know, I know.. maintainence, other costs don’t make it actually “fixed”), but it has worked very well for us.

       DO NOT USE THOSE PRE-APPROVAL NUMBERS AS GUIDANCE. Like. Don’t. Your definition of what you can afford (quantitative and qualitative) is very different than a bank (all quantitative). Generally they will approve you for way more than is practical. If we borrowed the max we were approved for we’d have an extra $1,500 mortgage payment which is absurd.

       1. Oh, of course not. I’m just curious how far from the bank’s perception of reality most people end up. We’re currently at something like 10% and that’s after I went part time….before that it was like 7-8%. And we live in an expensive town with high taxes. We got approved for more than we’d ever spend on one of our salaries alone, which was hilarious. But we’ve never before asked “hey how much would you give us?” Vs just saying “please tell us we are pre approved to X”

       2. Similar – moderately high cost of living area (suburban to major metro) in the midwest, and I think we’re around 10-15%. We pay extra towards our principal monthly and are both at law firms with the expectations that we won’t always be, so it was important to us to have a very reasonable number.

       3. When we bought our first house we were young and broke – our PITI was almost 20%, but we didn’t have many other debts or expenses so we knew we could make that work. It also needed work, so we were spending more than that on fixing it up.

          Now, this was early 2000s when mortgages were being handed out pretty easily, but our mortgage broker pre-approved us for 1.5 times more than what we actually bought. It was insane – no wonder so many people wound up in bad situations, because they were offered mortgages that relied on life always staying in a best case scenario, with no hiccups along the way.

    9. So for clarity, say your household earns $100k a year before any taxes or deductions-just straight salary and bonus. Your monthly payment to the bank is $1000, and that includes property tax and homeowners, as well as principal and interest. Your answer to my question would be 1% (1000/1000000).

       1. Why would you only take a monthly cost vs the whole year? That isn’t a useful number, is it?

          Wouldn’t it be more useful to take 12,000/100000 (12%) to look at your annual expense vs annual income?

       2. I think everyone is answering the question as (Monthly Housing Expenses)/(Monthly Income) or (Yearly Housing Expense)/(Yearly Income). What you’re proposing makes no sense. Why would you compare your monthly expenses to your yearly income?

       3. Sorry, yes, I’m multitasking. Totally right! Monthly/monthly. So $120k/year = $10k/month = 10% for a mortgage payment of $1k. Happy Friday, time to go home!!

          I was trying to clarify gross vs net and just made it all worse!

          1. It’s a good thing this is an anonymous site, I work in finance. I’m shaking my head laughing about this. TGIF.

    10. 6%. We save a total of $100k per year in pre-tax and taxable accounts.

    11. About 15% of pre-tax income in a HCOL. This is going to go up since we are moving to an even worse HCOL area and our income is going down :(

    12. We spend 18% post tax which is something like 13% pre tax. We live in a medium COL city, like Chicago or Pittsburgh. We live in the nicest neighbourhood in our city with rent below market rate. We have a very renter friendly city so we will stay in this apartment for a long time since there are rent increase laws that regulate the market. The 18% includes all utilities, parking, ect.

    13. 13% based on gross income, 20% based on take home pay. LCOL Midwest city

    14. 10%, very LCOL, and the mortgage is a 15 year term. Lest anyone be envious, I would note that we live in a food, restaurant, shopping, entertainment, and sports wasteland.

    15. 15% pre-tax; we’re in a very high-end area of a fairly low-cost location, but we think the premium is worth it

    16. 11% of pretax income in a LCOL area in New England. One large, neglected factor in the mortgage approval numbers is childcare, if that is an issue for you. Our childcare costs are easily 2X our mortgage.

    17. Right now about 16% of our pre-tax income, but we’re looking to buy a place that will put us around 26-29% pre-tax depending. That will decrease though when we get a second income. We live in a very high COL city and one of us is presently unemployed, so we’ll be a lot more financially comfortable when that income returns. We’d do OK though with the percentage we’ve set even if that doesn’t happen anytime soon, though.

    18. 20% of gross. very HCOL

    19. 15% of our pre-tax (gross) income. HCOL (Washington DC).

    20. 20% of gross, LCOL midwest 15 year mortgage

    21. We live in a LCOL area and bought a fixer upper in a gentrifying part of town. (DINKS)

        We pay just about 2% of our pre-tax income on housing. We are over-paying slightly and pay about 3% of our pre-tax income on our mortgage.

        As another note, we’re going to put about $20k worth of work into the house this year and are doing much of the work ourselves.

        We purposefully bought a cheap house because we love to travel and want to direct more of our income to that area. Since moving to this house, we’ve taken 2 (budget) international trips a year.

    22. 14%, NYC/Brooklyn

    23. 17% (PITI) of our after tax (and retirement, health/eye insurance, life/STD insurance, and HSA contributions) income. It is 11% pre tax (and other deductions). Low COL area in the Midwest.

    24. 20% of gross, 31% of net. DC area – it’s a lot. We recently moved and decided we’d rather have an extra couple hundred dollars going to the mortgage (fixed) for a house closer in than spend it on transportation costs and time with a cheaper house further out.

    25. Around 25%, 3,000 square feet on an acre, 15 minutes from work. Close in suburb to Twin Cities.

    26. 21% of gross, 39% of net (after taxes and maxing out retirement). That was a stretch for me post-divorce but I’m not sorry I did it. HCOL area. That doesn’t account for the tax deductions for interest and property taxes, which are huge.

        Once we are married it will be about half that. We’ll be living in Lovely Fiance’s house and renting mine out. I’m pretty sure I can cover my costs on my house so we’ll just have the costs associated with his house. So about the same costs (or a bit less) on about double the income. Can’t wait!

    27. Very high COLA with rapidly increasing prices. E.g., I sold my SFR after it appreciated >300k in 4 years. My new condo has appreciated >125k in a year.

        35% of gross; 65% of net (after 401k maxed), including HOA. Crazy!

        I have >90% of the mortgage principle in liquid (non-retirement) investments. My goal is to bring that to 100% in the next 6 months. Buying the condo has allowed me to slash my transportation, home maintenance, home renovation, and utilities budgets. Actually, my overall monthly budget is about $500 less than it was.

    28. 9% of my gross (not including bonus). When you include my live-in SO (who is not on the mortgage but shares all housing costs equally), it’s just under 6% gross. We bought in Boston last year and went way, way, way under what I was preapproved for because who knows how long I’ll stay in BigLaw.

    29. 8% of our monthly take home (after max retirement contributions; not including bonus). That’s a $600 mortgage plus about $300 a month property tax bill (dividing property tax total bill over the year). We own a home in the suburbs of a LCOL midwest city.

    30. 5-7% post-tax income, Chicago (our income fluctuates bc DH owns his own business, hence the range). Intentionally bought way under budget so we have more flexibility to do other things and be more aggressive on student loan payments.

    31. 18% of gross household income. We live in an expensive part of DC and are DINKs with no other outstanding debt.

    32. Woah, I’m at just under 30% of gross in a HCOL subrub, closer to 45% of net. That said, I just bought in March and the house has apparently appreciated by like 20% just since I bought it, and I do have salary bumps contracted for the next two years. I wonder if I should be panicking. The 55% of my paycheck we have left after housing expenses is not small, so it seems just fine right now…

11. How long did you wait after marriage before TTC? Did paternal age factor in? My fiancé and I will have been together two years when we marry next summer. He’ll be 38, though I’m in my late 20s. We both deeply want to be parents and are excited for that phase–part of us wants to start TTC the night of the wedding, and part of us thinks we should enjoy a year of married life first. Career timing etc is not really a factor, but we know that birth defects increase with paternal age.

    Related question. How much would you factor Zika into honeymoon planning? Our wedding is next June and we’d love to travel somewhere warm and tropical – but since we’ll be TTC within a year, I worry about risk.

    1. We had been married 3 years. We married young, however. Also, my husband’s father was older when he was born and it was important to my husband to have children at a younger age than his father did.

    2. If I knew I wanted to be pregnant within 6 months I would not go to a tropical location. Greece is lovely.

       One of my friends got pregnant the first night of their honeymoon. She then spent nine months vomiting in and out of the hospital. I feel bad they had no time, but they wouldn’t change it.

    3. We got married in 2012 and plan to try in 2017 or 2018, so we will have been married quite a while. We are the same age (31 now), and I only want one. We would have probably tried this year if we wanted two. I’m not a doctor but in your shoes I’d want to wait a year. The first year of married life really is kind of special. Even if you’ve been living together (we had) it feels different, and since you’re still pretty young, my vote would be to wait.

       Re Zika, check with your OBGYN, but mine told me there’s no risk unless you’re pregnant or conceive within a few weeks of Zika exposure. So I’d only factor it in if you’re planning to try immediately. FWIW, if you want somewhere warm and tropical with no Zika, Thailand has some spectacular beaches, especially on the West (Andaman Sea) side and is crazy affordable for Americans.

       1. My doctor actually said 6 months since there is no real data about Zika

    4. I would absolutely factor Zika into planning, but what I mean by that is that I would start by doing research on it and determining where it is a risk and where it is not and then plan around that. I wouldn’t just avoid traveling somewhere warm and tropical, or even worry about the risk until I had done research on it.

       In terms of timing, don’t forget that you have to wait 9 months for a baby, and it might not happen eventually. So, you’ll get the better part of a year to be just the two of you anyways. I mention this because when I was having the same concerns, I didn’t think of that, and now it couldn’t happen soon enough.

    5. We waited three months after we got married to TTC when DH was 34 and I was 28. We both knew that we wanted children, and my biological clock had been ticking loudly. We knew there was a possibility that it would take us time to TTC, so we didn’t want to wait because it might take us longer than expected. One year later and one loss later, and we are still trying. I’m glad we started then, because we have time to figure out if there are any medical reasons why we are having difficulty conceiving.

       Personally, I would not plan to honeymoon in a place that was likely to be heavily impacted by Zika if I wanted to TTC shortly after marriage.

    6. Got married at 25&26. TTC at 28/29 and had our first at 29/30. Had our second at 32/33. We are considering trying for a third, which would be born when I’m 34-35 and DH is 36/37.

       I was pregnant earlier this year and we canceled winter vacation plans to a zika zone; i was in my second tri.

    7. Oh man…. this is me. I’m 29, he’s 38. We’ve been married a couple of years. And we’ll probably start TTC around our 3rd anniversary. For me, it is important to get to know him as a husband before we become parents. I want to establish a really good relationship with a strong sense of shared responsibility and a good emotional intimacy and I also want to give us time to have evolving conversations about parenting. My parents waited 5 years, his parents waited 7 years (of course they married at 20-22). My biological clock didn’t really start ticking till this year, anyway, and I realize that even if we TTC starting today, it could be years before we have a baby. But this is the timing that felt right for us.

    8. My husband and I married young and have been married 11 years. We are just now TTC. He is 35 and I’m 34. Time without kids was really important to us but neither of us feels having kids is a make it or break it thing. If it doesn’t happen we will still live a fulfilling and happy life. We would have probably started earlier if we knew we really wanted kids.

       Things change once you are married. You realize you are with this person FOREVER. You also haven’t been together THAT long. I get my perspective is skewed though from meeting and marrying young. We were engaged two years and had been dating four before we got engaged. Yes, we started dating freshmen year of college. Have you lived together yet? If not, see how that goes first.

       I would be more worried about maternal age than paternal and I think you can safely give yourself a year or two. I am not a doctor though!

       I would want to make sure I had a sound marriage before having a kid. Lot’s of people know they are headed for divorce after just one or two years of marriage.

       1. Totally agree with all of this. The first year of marriage is often really hard, even for couples that have been together a long time and lived together before marriage. I knew many couples that were together 6, 7, 8 years and split up after less than one year of marriage.
          Many of my friends who were eager to pump out babies justified TTC immediately as “but you still have at least 9 months even if you start TTC on the wedding night.” But things shift for you as a couple when you start TTC. For many couples it becomes a big thing that dominates every other aspect of your life and certainly once you’re pregnant it dominates your thoughts, your conversations, your future plans, etc. It’s really worth getting to know what you and DH look like as a married couple without a third person (even a still-hypothetical one) in the mix.

    9. When we got married we intended to wait 5 years, although it actually turned out to be 7. Our shared personal philosophy is that divorce is harmless until there are children involved, so we wanted to give ourselves time to settle into and “test” our marriage before introducing children. And we are trying now due to maternal age – paternal age is not something we’ve spent any time considering.

       1. “divorce is harmless until there are children” SO TRUE!

    10. Married at 24, TTC at 32, had kiddo at 33. We were lucky that I got pregnant as soon as we started TTC.

        1. And we’d have probably started TTC 2-3 years earlier than we did if inlaws had not pressured us so much. I rebelled and put it off.

12. Is this “normal” operating procedure for plumbers….we called a plumber to replace our water heater. After coming for an initial call, figuring out the right size of water heater etc., they gave us a reasonable quote. We were going to tell them to go ahead with the work, but then we asked what brand/model of water heater they were going to order. Their response was “We can’t tell you because we don’t know what it is until we pick it up from our distributor.” ?! This is kind of shady, right? I would have been fine with a range of potential models too. They are a highly recommended company, and we’ve had them do work before, but still…

    1. I can’t comment specifically on plumbing and water heaters but we just bought a furnace and air conditioner and they had us pick the model.

       Why on earth wouldn’t they tell you??? Of course you want to pick it out! (efficiency level)

    2. Not necessarily. Our plumber goes to a distro center not Home Depot so he picks from what is available. Unless you want a specific brand, they usually pick from comparable models.

    3. I used to work for a plumbing distributor. We carried a couple of brands of water heater in stock. The plumber would come in and let us know what size they needed and sometimes they’d have a brand choice based on what was in stock. Sometimes they’d have a preferred brand that they’d like to use so we’d order it if it wasn’t in stock.

       My guess is that your plumber plans to take whatever is stocked in the appropriate size. If you have a preference, you could tell them so they can get it ordered if it isn’t in stock. It all depends on how much of a rush you are in.

    4. They’re probably worried that you’re going to google the brand/model and find online costs that are lower than what they quoted you. I sell industrial equipment that my company has to install because it’s specialized (not to consumers – tech company), but I always thing that that’s what’s going on if my customer asks for just the brand/model number. I bet you’ll get further if you ask the questions that you want to know about it (efficiency, capacity, etc..) or for a product lit.

       That said, they have a weird response and aren’t handling it very well. If I were them, I would have offered to send you the product lit.

13. I have very good reason to believe that my department will be laid off by the end of the year, so I am actively job searching. It was time to anyway, I’m bored and don’t feel challenged 95% of the time. I’ve always wanted to go to law school, but have been warned off by posters here and others in the legal industry and my current career trajectory doesn’t necessarily require grad school but I love the idea of learning but the idea of paying just to go doesn’t make sense.

    That said, I just don’t know what to apply for. I’m not interested in continuing to work in my industry (insurance) and I don’t really love what I do, but I’ve been promoted three times in three years because I’m good at it. My management continually gives me clients where the relationship is floundering, I turn it around and have an excellent track record of getting multi-year contracts signed when there have been threats to leave entirely. I like the part of my job that requires relationship building but I don’t know how to effectively translate this skill to paper and I second guess every application I think about sending.

    How do I get over this feeling of incompetency/not being good enough??

    1. That is tough, and I’m sorry that you may be going through a layoff. But it sounds like you’ll end up on your feet no matter which way you go. I am not a lawyer, so no advice on that. For what to look to next, focus on the things of your job that you enjoy and are good at to start figuring out what type of job you want to do next.

       Definitely focus on relationships in your skill set, and try to quantify anything you can – such as the number of contracts you have gotten signed, value of the contracts signed, or length of contracts signed.

       Don’t second guess yourself, you are good enough, and you’ve proven yourself over and over again!

    2. Wow, you have about four different questions in this impostor syndrome post. First, I’d recommend a career coach or a life coach. Just a few sessions might give you an idea where you could go and springboard your skills to a career that would be fulfilling. Alternately, read Pathfinder by Nicholas Lore (cheap on amazon or from your public library) and use his techniques to identify what skills you have and how you’d like to apply those skills.

       Many companies offer tuition reimbursement so don’t give up the idea of grad school. There are some very reputable programs with either evening classes, weekend classes or a combination of in-person classes and online. Some companies might even pay for law school at night.

       For impostor syndrome, I think you may struggle with that because you got quick promotions but those promotions come because you seem to master things quickly. This is a positive trait. Start building an “achievements” file – either on your laptop, on your phone or in a notebook. Maybe keep a loose journal of work activities. Look back at those in a month or two and see how you’re growing.

       See if you can find a mentor in your current company. Bounce around some ideas. There are tons of industries that are tangentially related to insurance (finance, banking, risk management) and also there are many different types of insurance companies and positions so you might find an insurance-related position or company where you can apply your skills in a whole new way.

       Good luck!

    3. If you are good at relationship building and fixing problems and like law and policy, you could be a lobbyist. You’d need to live/work in your state capitol. You could use your substantive knowledge of insurance to lobby on behalf of an insurance company to start with.

    4. OK, you are over working IN insurance, but would you work in an adjacent area?
       I work in software development and subject matter experts are highly valued on teams that build software that supports the corresponding business, in your case – insurance. Would you see yourself in the liaison role, explaining the business need to technical folks? This role, or related “product owner” role, might be feasible with your background and good people skills.
       From there you would be able to transition to project/program management or business development if you are interested. There are more technical paths, for instance Big Data/Analytics, or training.
       I have traversed a similar path and basically acquired all the skills on the job, without paying for school. My employers paid for all my training. Job satisfaction heavily depends on the team and the client, but some of my past projects have been very fulfilling in terms of intellectual challenge and human interaction.

14. How to you project confidence when you don’t feel it? Especially in an interview or similar situation?

    1. For interviews, etc., I pretend like I’m advocating for someone else – a client, a friend, etc. that I really value. It makes me less self conscious about feeling like I’m bragging or exaggerating (even when there’s no exaggeration at all). For public speaking, etc., it’s a little trickier for me unless I know the subject matter inside and out.

    2. The best advice I read was in Jenny Lawson’s “Furiously Happy” book: Pretend you’re someone who’s good at it. So, think of someone who has lots of confidence and just pretend you’re that person. (Hope this helps!)

       1. Yep. “Act as if.”

15. I live in an urban/suburban ‘hood (e.g., Virginia Highlands, Atlanta; Arlington, VA) that is older (so houses are older and have driveways but not usually garages; these are highly walkable neighborhoods but also high car use / ownership neighborhoods (and visitors come in cars)).

    DH and I each have a car. He parks on the driveway (sort of blocking going from the front yard to the backyard) — he could reorient to be less of an obstruction. I park on the street (leaving one other street spot in front of our house and the front part of the driveway for the plumber / mailman / visitors / babysitter).

    He wants another car (a weekend / “fun” car) for him. I think it would be bad form to have a car permanently blocking access to our back yard or to clog up all street spots in front of our house. I do not want to have the sort of house that just has cars in the yard (and wouldn’t spend any $ on putting in a garage or changing the driveway footprint on a small lot). [It doesn’t help that our driveway / house was laid out when cars were tiny and people had only 1 or 2 per house, but it’s par for our neighborhood.]

    Have any of you run into the older (late 40s) guy car hoarding gene and dealt with it in a helpful and productive manner?

    1. Ha. Yes. My DH just got the I’m in my 40s” red convertible. He has his regular commuter car and a truck. We have a 3 car garage and I have a car. I hate it. Finding an organization to donate the truck to is actually on my list of things to do.

       1. “I’m in my 40s”

       2. NPR.

    2. DH has a fun car and a work car; I have one car. It is annoying. We have a two car garage, so not as much of a parking issue as yours because the third car can just park in the driveway behind the two cars in the garage. But guess who usually has to be the third car? And consequently haul the carseat through the rain to get into the house? That’s me!

       Also, re: cars in the yard, if this is a residential neighborhood, there’s probably a city ordinance prohibiting that. It may not be enforced (especially if there are cars parked in yards all the time throughout the neighborhood), but a lot of places have a prohibition against it on the books.

       1. I would not put up with that. Your DH can park his fun car in his garage slot and his commuting car can park in the driveway behind it. You get the other garage slot.

          1. That’s technically the arrangement, and I shouldn’t have made it sound like I ALWAYS have to park in the third spot… But he “forgets” sometimes. A lot. :)

             1. Is there a garage door opener? Take away his remote :)

             2. I agree with Anon at 12:42 – pretty sure his garage opener needs to be with the keychain for the fun car and the key for the fun car needs to live inside the house unless it’s actively been driven at that time.

                If he’s home – which presumably he is if the car is in the garage – use your cell call him and have him come out and move the car.

                It’s bananas that he takes up the whole garage!

    3. Lovely Fiance has THREE cars (one fun/weekend antique sports car, one SUV, one late-model sports car). When I move in there will be four. There’s no overnight parking allowed so the weekend car lives in the garage and the other three live in the driveway. There’s room behind the gate so it’s not an eyesore from the street, but it’s a bit of a pain because you from the parking area to the street is only one car wide so unless we’re leaving at the same time there is some shifting that has to go on. Hopefully at some point he will clear out the other side of the garage so another car can park there, which will help some.

       It’s annoying but not anything I’m willing to go to battle about. Price of admission.

       1. I mean no overnight street parking allowed.

       2. LOL “Price of admission.”

          Thank you for the reminder of relationship advice you’ve shared here before–this time in the form of a real-life example! :-)

    4. If you’re in a neighborhood where everyone parks on the street, I wouldn’t blink an eye if two cars were always parked in front of your house. One thing to consider if you’re in a snowy part of the country is how do you plan to handle snow emergencies where you need to move cars off of the street for plows to go through?

       1. A big thing is that trash pickup is on the street, so if everyone is parking on the street, there isn’t room for recycling roll-out (needs 3 feet clearance on each side for the claw) and the regular trashcan (needs +3 feet additional). So one car space on trash day for each house must be clear for trash cans.

    5. isn’t this problem exactly what storage units were designed for? If he wants another fun car then he needs to rent a storage unit for it.

       Why does he always get to park off street? Maybe alternate weeks – he parks off street one week, you park off street the next.

16. I don’t know about a water heater, but when we replaced our furnace, the companies all gave us quotes based on specific models, because prices would vary depending on which one we go with. Why don’t you get second and third quotes from someone else?

17. Can sandals be resoled the way other shoes can? I’m looking at these shoes and am trying to figure out how long I can get them to last.

    http://mgemi.com/sandals/the-medio/00_1312_01.html/#!/color/262/size/36

    1. As soon as you buy them, you can take them to the cobbler and have a rubber sole attached to the bottom, then keep replacing the rubber sole as it wears down. I’m not sure you can replace the leather sole though.

18. I have recently decided that I no longer drink. I like framing it as “I don’t drink” as opposed to “I’ve stopped drinking.” It seems much more empowering.

    Anyway, I’ve slowly been telling people. Mostly as I am about to be in a situation where there is drinking. I prepare myself mentally and I’m good. It hasn’t been too difficult. I’ve never been an “I need to drink” drinker. However I have no control after 2 drinks and it’s easier to abstain.

    Most of the reactions have been positive and supportive. I’ve had one person who is a friend of a friend of a friend who said “I don’t even know you anymore.” Ummm, you never did buddy.

    Just thought I’d share. Can use all of the positive reinforcement I can get :-)
    Also, ginger beer with lime is a delicious NA option!

    1. Yay! Fruegel Friday’s! I love Fruegel Friday’s and this freuegel selection, Kat! I am late to the party, AGAIN, b/c I was out of the office goeing over some firm billing’s with a cleint. The cleint did NOT think we should have billed 56 hours on a matter, but I convinced him that he was MISTAKEN b/c I had to do alot of ORIGINAL research on a probelem his company had re compliance.

       So we left it that I would complete the job (which is just a motion opposing leave to appeal as of right for a total of 6 hours (I already have the pleading drafted for another cleint), and we would consider the matter closed. YAY!!!

       As for the OP, I wish Sheketovits had this attitude, and if he did, we would have been MARRIED and with child by now. If ONLEY he had drinken ginger beer, he would NOT have pee’d on my rugs and stained my sheet’s so much. But OP, I commend you for takeing this initiatve and NOT drinkeing any more. My Alan was equally useless after 3 drink’s, tho he insisted he wasn’t. THE HIVE knows that a drunk man can NOT be a straight man, either standing or in bed, and that means a sloppey undertakeing if he tries. OP, You have the POWER OF THE HIVE SUPPORTING YOU as you go the non-alcohoholic route. YAY for you for doeing this! DOUBEL YAY!

    2. Good for you! My husband stopped drinking about 5 years ago, and when it comes up, I feel like people always assume he was an alcoholic and is now in recovery. There’s a weird vibe. But he just decided that he felt better and healthier without it. Now he can’t really imagine drinking, and I have a built in designated driver whenever we go to dinner! It’s great for both of us.

       San Pellegrino sodas are his replacement. Not low-cal, if that’s a thing you care about, but also less of temptation to drink more than one.

       1. Good for you! I don’t like drinking, so I do it rarely.

          There are some fun sodas. Take a look at a World Market if there’s one near you.

    3. Good for you! I’m not trying to be a Negative Nelly, but don’t be surprised if your friendships change. I stopped drinking under similar circumstances and I was surprised by how many friends dropped me cold once I didn’t want to “party.” But my friendships with my supportive friends got stronger and I got closer to other friends and acquaintances who aren’t big into drinking. I’m not sure how old you are, but now that I’m in my mid-30s it’s pretty much a non-issue, because so many friends are preg or have kids, so no one is really going out to the bars.

       1. Oh, I know. I am also purposely pulling away from certain groups that really all we had in common was drinking. And, actually, the last time I was with them all they had so much drama and hysterics (I’m mid-30s, they range from late 20’s to mid 30’s) that I made up my mind to cut them out. It was just bad juju.

19. Trying again since I didn’t get any feedback yesterday. Has anyone tried Sonnet James who can comment on the sizing? I’m usually a size 10 in BR pants and a size 6/8 on top. I love the look of their dresses for the weekend but am concerned that they might run small or be too tight across the hips.

    1. just get two sizes and return the one that doesn’t fit well. and done.

20. I tried this cardigan back when it was regular price. It actually came in two shades of blue, which is what I think lead to the color confusion Kat referenced. However, I’ll say that on me, it was boxy – I’m very hourglassy and because the material is very thin and soft, when open it just sort of hung there. And closed, it didn’t define my waist, and rode up.

    1. Thanks!

21. You guys, I need a backbone (and a drink and it’s not even noon!) My company just sucks. We are in financial trouble and were recently cut off by a bunch of our suppliers. We just got back to being able to order stuff but I’ve had to hold off a bunch of my customers.

    One of them is just pissed at me because their project is behind. It is behind and it sucks. It’s our fault but I just got completely chewed out and personally attacked I called my coworker to vent about it and he wasn’t helpful

    Another customer just emailed to ask if their installation can be moved up. It can’t. We aren’t even sure we’ll have any product to install in July when it’s currently scheduled. I knew this. Instead of just taking the bullets, I replied “I’ll check!” I’m a wimp.

    My boss and his boss are on vacation today and the sales guy isn’t picking up his phone. I’m also no longer allowed to ask questions of the Purchasing department, I just will get a report from them once a week.
    I need to apply for new jobs.

    1. Ugh. Sounds like a good time to take this afternoon off. I suggest day drinking and a quick spin around the job boards.

    2. Quick – payroll is likely next to go. . .

       1. The first thing I did today was check to see that my check got deposited.

    3. Looks like a day off is in order to work on resume and start applying for jobs. Good luck, a company in this much turmoil is so stressful.

22. Happy Friday everyone! It’s payday here (although it all goes to bills this time around) and I am wearing an outfit that makes me happy. I have this “crazy” parrot shirt that is kind of an Escher-like pattern with white, hot pink, and teal parrots, which I am wearing with dark bootcut jeans, a white linen blazer, and strappy wedges. The shirt is an AT shirt I found at a thrift store for $12! It’s the best.

    1. I totally wish this s i t e had pictures!

23. As soon as spring hits, I am without socks. I am finding that my heels and flats all smell pretty terrible. Is there any way to fix this?

    And as I have just learned of this thing called socklettes, any rec for no show socks that really don’t show would be greatly appreciated!

    1. I have the same problem, and hate socks so can’t help with the sockettes. Some other things that help:

       1. Lavilin foot deodorant
       2. Wearing leather rather than synthetic shoes
       3. Never wearing the same shoes 2 days in a row
       4. Putting baking soda in shoes overnight

       1. I will be looking up that foot deodorant. I’ve tried just smearing regular deodorant on my feet, but that didn’t seem to help (and felt kinda gross).

          I wipe down the insides of my shoes with a little bit of rubbing alcohol or an alcohol wipe. I also got these “bamboo charcoal” pouches that you leave in your shoes when you’re not wearing them – the work best before shoes get too stinky, but they might still help.

    2. I have this exact same problem. Such a pain.

    3. I’ve tried the sockettes more than a few times & found that all they did was slide off my feet on inopportune times.

       I see people wearing them sometimes (They usually do show somewhat), so I guess they work for someone.
       I bought a bunch of different styles from the department store and nothing really worked. Good luck!

    4. Agree with the air out shoes at least 1-2 days between wear, and now I only wear leather vs. synthetics. Odor eaters spray, powder in shoes, wipe down etc… The socks always show for me, so no go. Sometimes… I just wear hose.

       But then… my dermatologist put me on sprinolactone for acne, and my stinky feet and shoes went away. Totally amazing.

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