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Updated: Nov 1, 2018 293 Comments · by

Frugal Friday’s TPS Report: Lands End Pattern Ponte Boatneck Dress

The Personal Shopper (TPS)· Under $150

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Our daily TPS reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices. Lands End Pattern Ponte Boatneck DressI recently got a few ponte dresses from Lands' End and was pleased with the softness, washability, and general quality of the fabric — and you can't beat some of the deep discounts you get at the Friends and Family sale, going on now. This patterned boatneck dress is part of the sale: it was $79, is now marked to $44.99, and with the 30% discount (plus free shipping) it comes to $30.80. While only M-XL are left in the regular sizes, if you're 5'4 or so you may want to consider the petite, which has all sizes still remaining. (I found that I preferred the fit of the petites to the regular in the other “knee-length” dresses I bought). Their returns process is very easy, but if you prefer returns in store, Sears will accept Lands' End returns. (You may also want to check out this readers' favorite dress, or this previously recommended drapey top). Lands End Pattern Ponte Boatneck Dress Seen a great piece you'd like to recommend? Please e-mail tps@corporette.com. (L-4)  

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Comments

    • emeralds

      I like the shape a lot, too, but I just can’t figure out how I feel about the print. From a distance I think it would be fine, but the closer I zoom the more I go MEH. It’s also available in black, but I have enough black dresses. Sigh.

      • Marilla

        Hmm, I agree. Love the shape of the dress though. AND, I just idly clicked over to the shipping page and realized Lands’ End actually has free shipping to Canada for orders over $50! I never would have expected that. I may have to start looking at the dresses you ladies have recommended from there.

        • Nonny

          Yes – I’ve bought online from LE before and found that they actually shipped from a Canadian warehouse – no duty, taxes, nada. I was thrilled. Haven’t purchased anything from them recently but they have my loyalty just because of that one fact.

        • emeralds

          Once you actually click through, it doesn’t look like the red and the eggplant show up. I’d probably buy it in red but I guess it’s just not meant to be.

          • Isabet

            As much as I like quite a lot of LE stuff (their button-front shirts tend to fit me really well) I wish they’d stop this new thing where they offer significantly different standard, plus and trendy/juniors lines – especially since a lot of the plus-only stuff is weirdly frumpy or has strange details, and then you’ll be looking at a perfectly ordinary button-front shirt and realize that for some reason they’ve decided that the pink print is too…trendy? attractive?…to make in the plus sizes. Also, a lot of their plus-only stuff is really long, baggy and voluminous – most of it I would never buy because I would simply be swallowed up. And of course there’s some hilarity when looking at the trendy/juniors line because most of it is just prettier, more fashionable versions of perfectly ordinary styles – it’s not like it’s all LE bodycon dresses and crop tops, it’s just that the pretty prints are too pretty for anyone over a size 14. I would feel differently about this market segmentation if it weren’t Lands End, too – it’s not as though they have any problem selling to plus-sized customers or manufacturing clothes for them. I don’t expect a shop that focuses on clothes for, say, sizes 0 – 12 to change their business model and start offering everything in a plus range, but that’s not LE and this whole market segmentation thing is really new for them.

            I’m fortunate in that while I’m not thin, I wear the larger regular sizes and so generally just check out the small plus sizes in case it looks like the fit is better, but it is still irritating. I wish they’d just realize that with very minor exception, plus-sized women want the same kinds of clothes as standard-sized women – if I want a button-front shirt, I would like it in an attractive, contemporary print with a standard arrangement of buttons and standard collar, whether I am looking for a size 6 or a size 22W.

          • dancinglonghorn

            I actually really like that they do that. I’m a “cusp” size and I wear the flannel and button down shirts at LE in a 1XL from their plus size line (I have a massive chest and am normally a LE L in their regular line) and they have redesigned them from the regular line so that they are much more flattering on larger busts than simply a regular button-down (which I can’t wear at all!) in a larger size. So I kind of like that the plus clothes are re-cut and re-designed to be more flattering on a different-sized form. One of the bigger complaints from plus size customers is that the clothes are just larger versions of regular clothes when really some different seaming or different design work would be much more flattering (I do sometimes were a 12W so I totally understand that point and hate it when seams are not in flattering places!)

            But I understand your point as well.

    • Ellen

      Me too! Especialy b/c it it fruegal Friday’s and I LOVE fruegel friday’s! This is the perfect dress for me b/c Frank will NOT be abel to see my boobies also!

      Is any one in the HIVE familiar with the book I am reading that my mom loaned me? It is called
      WONDER WOMEN: SEX, POWER, AND THE QUEST FOR PERFECTION, BY DEBRA SPAR.

      I recomend it highly even tho I have NOT even read much of it. I will report back as I find good tidbit’s to share.

      Willem called and wondered why we are NOT getting together this weekend. I told him that we did not make plans, silly. We are NOT dateing either, so I do NOT think it was even proper for him to think that he own’s me. I think he think’s b/c he invited me to go to BELGUM to meet his family that he can consider ME to be his girlfreind? I have NEVER even kissed him, and the onley thing he did (w/o my permission) was to rub my tuchus, and he said it was b/c there was a bug on my tuchus in the elevator. I never saw a bug, either. FOOEY!

      And now Fred is goieng to find me a different show to go to. I told him no football. It is cold out and mabye a basketball game, but even there it is dumb, but that was with Willem. I am meeting the judge with the manageing partner for lunch today, so now I have to worry about that Micheal guy to! All of a sudden, there are so many men in my life! I wonder if it is all b/c of the fitbit and my smaller tuchus? Whatever!

  2. In-House Advice

    I need advice.

    There are three of us in my legal office: the chief counsel and my colleague and I, who both report to the chief. Our office is one of 10 satellite offices with lawyers, and the company’s GC is in the headquarters.

    Our chief is going to retire in a couple years. I have been respectfully clear with her and with the GC that I would like to succeed her. There will be a national search, and I have asked for help to become a strong candidate.

    The issue is my colleague. He is about 5 years older than I. He has told everyone that he does not want our chief’s job, but that he will not report to me. I am concerned that the company will hire someone from the outside to replace our chief and hope that both of us will stay on to report to the new chief rather than promote me and risk my colleague leaving.

    There is no question that I am the better attorney. There is no question that I have stronger relationships with more of our company’s executives and mid-level managers. I also went to a better law school and worked at a better firm before coming to the company than my colleague. On the other hand, my colleague has been practicing about 5 years longer than I and has been at the company about 5 years longer than I.

    I am beside myself because I feel that I am fighting an unnamed, unnameable cloud of smoke. No one (here at our location or at headquarters) will talk about this. The decision will ultimately be made by a search committee headed by our location’s then-president and the GC.

    Any and all ideas welcome.

    (I have searched Ask A Manager and other resources and found nothing.)

    • Hoping to Replace

      I’m not quite sure what your actual question is. You can’t control what your company will do and I wouldn’t be too hurt that they would want to search nationally–that’s just part of the game. You also can’t control whether the other colleague would want to report to you (whether his view is fair or not). All you can do is be as excellent as you can be in the meantime and decide what is in your interest once the events transpire should they not go your way. (Would you be willing to report to someone else, no matter how great that new person may be? If not, than I would sit tight until the decision and start thinking about other options and getting a plan going .) I wouldn’t threaten leaving outright like your colleague did, however. They already surely recognize this risk. A “line in the sand” stance against leadership like this is only likely to make the declarer look less like a team player and rather childish (probably why the colleague isn’t in the running….). And do not bring up where you went to school.

    • mascot

      I think you may be a little premature in worrying about this, and that’s why you aren’t getting a lot of traction from the powers that be. Who knows what could happen in 2-3 years? My advice would be to continue to do great work and continue to be vocal about your plan/desire to move up in the organization. Your colleague is going to do what he is going to do. You can’t let that upset your plans.

    • NOLA

      I was in this situation. I was promoted to head of a division of my organization over a guy who was a department head when I was hired (at age 25). We butted heads a lot. I would ask him to do things a certain way (mainly budgeting or budget tracking) and he would yell and run to my boss and tell her I was an incompetent idiot and my boss would tell him I was right. I’m not going to deny it was really hard for awhile and there were times I felt like despairing of ever getting him to do things my way (the way all of the rest of us were doing things). Sadly, it was partly because he didn’t know how to do things that way but wouldn’t admit it, especially to me. But my boss at the time (a wonderful mentor) kept assuring me that I was moving him in the right direction and that I had actually accomplished a lot with him. So that said, it’s his choice. You can be promoted and he can choose to leave. He can’t choose not to report to you if that’s what the company decides is best. You are clearly a better candidate and it’s not up to him whether you are promoted. You might be promoted even if he were interested, right?

    • Statutesq

      I think this would be a great question for the Lawyers Whisperer group on LinkedIn.

      • In-House Advice

        I had no idea that group even existed. Thanks. Is there a way to post there anonymously? (I have a LinkedIn profile, but obviously I do not want to use it for this question!)

        • In-House Advice

          I see now: you email your question to the Group’s administrator, and she posts it.

          Does anyone have any experience with this? Can I trust it?

    • Anonymous

      Agreed, you have to make the best case you can for yourself, regardless of what the colleague thinks. I’m not sure you can reasonably expect management to “address” this issue with you at this stage because there is no issue until you (1) get promoted AND (2) the colleague makes good on his threat. Also, if the colleague is going to behave in such an unreasonable way, it’s all the more opportunity for you to swoop in and show that you’re an awesome team player who will get the job done despite obstacles.

    • Anon

      I’m not sure how you’re talking yourself up at work, but I would refrain from focusing on where you went to school and your seniority issues. Those matter (some, really in the hiring and leaving process) in big law but the school piece may seem quite obnoxious in-house. I would focus on trying to build more upper level relationships (mid level is great, don’t ignore it) as you’ll need executive support to get promoted. Also, take some time to figure out if your skills are really matching the company culture. Often skills are less important than “getting it” and with the school focus you may have, you might not.

      • Divaliscious11

        Yes. No one really cares where you went to school or where your worked before unless your talking HYS vs low tier 4….

    • Effie

      “There is no question that I am the better attorney. There is no question that I have stronger relationships with more of our company’s executives and mid-level managers. I also went to a better law school and worked at a better firm before coming to the company than my colleague. On the other hand, my colleague has been practicing about 5 years longer than I and has been at the company about 5 years longer than I.”

      Do you walk around like these things are absolute truths? Because if so, even if they are true, that would make me also never want to report to you. This person is senior to you – he may very well be less competent than you, but that’s no reason for this poor attitude. (I mean really? A career is so much more than the school you went to or the firm you were at before.)

    • ANP

      I agree with the people who have said that this a little premature (although always good to plan ahead) and also that you have limited control over how your company will act. I think all that you can do is work to position yourself to be considered a strong candidate for this promotion. Will your retiring boss have any say in the matter? Will his or her recommendation carry any weight? That’s something to consider.

      I would say that you’d absolutely want there to be a national search — because if you were selected as the strongest candidate out of a large pool, that would solidify your legitimacy as The Right Pick (vs. being The Convenient Promotion). If your company acquiesces to the pressure your colleague is putting on them, well, that might make it time for you to look for a new job. Alternatively, if they choose you and he has an issue with it, maybe HE needs to look for a new job. Good luck!

    • Anon

      I agree with the school comments above and I think you need to fix things with your colleague to have a chance. Make him your friend. If he doesn’t want the job himself, that’s good news – you’re not actively competing. So figure out what he wants and how to work with him – if you got it, could you also promote him? reassign stuff he doesn’t like to your replacement hire? make him in charge of replacement hire? give him a better title? more money? more vacation? I’d work on finding out what he’d want and cut a deal with him so you get his support. But I also really think your attitude is going to need some serious adjusting — it’s a pretty huge flag to me if you have a co-worker that has actively said they won’t report to you. On a hiring committee, it wouldn’t be about losing him so much as it would be about whether you are someone anyone would want to report to. You need to fix that issue and do some real soul searching to figure out what’s turning people off. The school/I am the better lawyer comments might be a good place to start. “Best” lawyer is incredibly subjective and you just might not be. School is irrelevant.

    • Divaliscious11

      Haven’t read the other comments so I apologize for any duplication, but what you need to do is get some visibility, and executive support.
      Are there projects that are strategic that you can get placed on to work with the executive team or executive team direct reports?
      Who are your allies in the business? Is there an internal candidate thought to be the next President?
      Who is the current GC’s “wing man” or ally on the executive team?
      Have you made yourself “the go to” lawyer in your space? sometimes its not just being the subject matter expertise but also they lawyer is understands the business better and therefore is more facile.
      When you want to move into a more strategic position, you need opportunities to show that part of your skill set….

      Sit down, map out a plan, build the relationships…..

      I suspect I disagree with others, but I wouldn’t worry about the other guy. Do you have a good working relationship? If so, that is all you need. I think saying he doesn’t want the job, but that he won’t work for you, is well, bs. He wants the job but doesn’t want to say so…. Do not focus your energy on him – focus on being the right person for the job. Ideally, you want the business folks to be the ones to say – “What about “In-house Advice?” and then advocate on your behalf. If you have the requisite legal skill, its the other stuff that will be determinative….

  3. 1L budget

    I need some budgeting advice from you wise ladies. How do I reign in my shopping without completely abstaining? I worked for several years before law school and am finding the transition to a student budget difficult. I don’t have trouble with other areas of my budget but clothing is my weakness!

    • Anon

      I will let myself buy one thing a month. That forces me to think about what I really actually need — i.e. a new pair of boots / a new bra, not yet another going out top from Zara.

      • preg anon

        The thing that worked best for me before I became such an internet shopper was taking out cash at the beginning of the month. I bought all clothing in cash, and when it was gone, it was gone. I could also save up one month to buy something better the next month. (Now I’m totally abstaining because I have realized I have a problem.)

        • Anonymous

          Would you be willing to share a bit about how you decided you had a problem? (If you were serious about that?)

          • preg anon

            Sure. The main thing was that we added onto our house, and I thought my new closet was so huge. And then I started moving my stuff into it and filled it. When I was actually looking at all of my clothes, and moving them, it just made me a little sick. I do not need that many clothes. I always justify it by saying I need to look nice for work, but I passed that point long ago.

          • Famouscait

            On a somewhat related note: I wouldn’t classify myself as having a diagnosable problem (such as a shopping addiction) but on multiple occasions I have looked at the quantity of things in my closet and felt slightly sickened by all that STUFF. Usually this happens around the time that I’m switching over between seasons (like now). I’d really like to downsize the amount of stuff I have.

            One other thing that helped me was purely on accident… When my husband and I were relocating about 18 months ago, I had to live for 6 weeks out of just one suitcase. I thought long and hard about each piece I wanted to keep accessible, and actually found that I felt like I had *more* to wear when my closet was full of just the things I wanted to wear and felt good in. This is still highly counter-intuitive for me, and I wouldn’t have believed had I not tried it out myself. I actually have been considering doing this again at the start of each season so that I can really take a hard look at what I have, what I need, and what I have that I don’t need.

          • PolyD

            Sheepishly peeking in here. I don’t have credit card debt, have healthy savings and a healthy savings rate ($X per month is non-negotiable), but wow, I have a lot of clothes. This site doesn’t help – I am now seriously considering some items from Lands End, and I totally do not need more clothes.

            For me it’s more emotional – I am frustrated with certain things in my life that are difficult to change, so I guess I subconsciously think changing clothes means changing my life. It’s still hard to stop, there are so many pretty things out there and it’s fun to put outfits together. Maybe I just need some Barbies to dress or something.

            I’ve started keeping a list in iNotes of everything I buy, hoping it starts to work like a food journal and holds me accountable for my spending. I realize I also need to try to address the life issues that are frustrating me so much.

          • Nonny

            I’ve had a similar experience to preg anon and Famouscait. I don’t need all that STUFF. This has really hit home over the past few months while wearing my maternity wardrobe, which is pretty small but carefully chosen (probably about 20 pieces total, including weekend wear). Surprisingly, I haven’t had any problems with such a small wardrobe. Although I’m looking forward to having all my fun clothes back in a few months, it’s made me realize that (a) I certainly don’t need to buy anything more, and (b) despite my efforts to downsize my wardrobe over the past year or so, I can go a lot further.

    • Anonymous

      Create lists. Put things you want/need on lists — whether they are website wishlists or paper lists or in your phone. Then, ponder the lists and decide if you really want them/need them after all.

      Make sure your closets are clean and organized. Are you wearing all the things you have. What do you love? What have you bought that you haven’t gotten very much use out of. Don’t buy those kinds of things again.

      Keep track of cost per wear. Don’t buy things that have a really high cost per wear.

      Focus on quality over quantity. Save up for well made things in good fabrics. Swear off cheap fabrics and cheap construction. Swear off super trendy items.

      Don’t think of an item and say “this would be good to wear out to dinner or to a bar.” Think of an item and say, “do I have 5 other pieces in my closet that this will work with?” Ask yourself if it works in multiple settings — i.e. will it look good under a blazer for work but also with a mini skirt for going out. Ask yourself how many seasons it will be good for.

      Create a personal style and look. What do you want your style to be like? Only buy things that fit that style. Don’t try to be all things.

      • Batgirl

        This last point is so my problem–I feel like I have all sorts of mismatched styles. So much frumpy stuff that I buy bc I think it’ll look “professional” and then so much casual stuff that’s too casual to wear to my extremely casual office.

        • Yellow

          I recently realized that I love the boho style that people like Kate Hudson, Sienna Miller, etc. pull off so well, but that I 1) don’t have the foundation pieces to make it look good and 2) it isn’t worth me investing in those kinds of pieces because I can’t wear them often enough. I had these weird little items of clothing that I got because I loved how they would have looked on someone else, with the rest of their wardrobe, in their life. It doesn’t work for me. As soon as I had this “ah ha!” moment, I was able to admire them in stores, and step away.

          I defined my style as classic, with some edgy pieces for interest and have never looked back. I would say my casual uniform is jeans (black or denim) + boots or ballet flats + a t shirt + some kind of jacket: some are more classic like plaid, others are colorful tweed, others are leather, some have sequines (!!) but the base of my outfit never really changes.

      • 1L budget

        This is great advice. I really do need to sit down and have a heart-to-heart with my closet!

    • TO Lawyer

      Why don’t you give yourself a monthly shopping budget/allowance you can afford? Then, you can shop all you want but as long as its within that budget? The cash thing never really worked for me because it just became too unwieldy with change and everything but I found that a monthly budget worked.

      Another option might be to see if you can get another credit card with a lower credit limit. That could be your shopping credit card.

      • 1L budget

        I think part of my problem is working out what I can afford! I’m not on a loan yet but my savings will run out at a certain point and I will be getting a loan/PSLOC (in Canada) to finance the rest. I guess I need to figure out a reasonable amount to spend in a year as someone who will only be working in the summer.

    • lia

      Are you getting loans? If so calculate the cost of everything as the money you’ll have to pay back with interest. That did it for me – i.e. a shirt at $30 was great, but paying back that shirt five years from now and paying interest on it just wasn’t worth it. I would buy myself one or two things when the loan check came in and then just not buy anything except for crazy minor target purchases (sale clothes under $20 once or twice) for the rest of the semester.

      • 1L budget

        Not yet, but I will at some point. I will try considering the interest on the other end – I imagine it will offer some deterrence!

    • Philosophia

      Replying to Famouscait at 10:33 a.m. on her counterintuitive “less is more” realization: that’s exactly what the capsule wardrobe, Project 333, and their like are said to produce (although Project 333 appears to be about minimalism more as an end in itself than as a means to an end).

  4. Anon

    Recognizing that its Friday and apologizing for being depressing, do any of you high achieving ladies ever wish you had just opted out and pursued a less demanding job? I am in a very intense career path and worked very hard to get where I am (which is my “dream job”) — but it’s so hard. Sometimes I wish I had pursued a simpler career like some of my friends where I could work 9-5 and have a better life and less stress. I’d be less emotionally invested, which might make my job more boring, but then I also wouldn’t feel like I wanted to cry every day. Mind you, I love my job in the abstract, its fascinating and rewarding, ts just that all of the pressure is wearing me down.

    I know I will get a response of “why don’t you just quit and pursue a less demanding lifestyle?” but as most of you know that is easier said than done when you’re an ambitious person deep down and when you’ve already invested so much. I guess I am just articulating a feeling I have that sometimes makes me feel guilty. I don’t think Sheryl Sandberg feels this way, for example, so why do I?

    • Anon

      To tag onto that- I think I have similar feelings as you. What I don’t like about my career is that you either work a lot, or you do less work but in a not-as-exciting field. I wish I could do what I do, but not have the expectation to bill 2400 hours a year. I don’t mind working at odd times (i.e. on the weekend when somethings comes up on a Friday), but it’s the every day, all day, work long hours, come home utterly exhausted thing I cannot do. But I don’t want to give up the unique work I am doing.

      • Anon

        I’m in the same boat. I love my job in theory. The work is interesting, my coworkers are smart and motivated people. But billing 12-14 hours a day, every day, is tiring. I envy my friends who leave work by 6 or 7pm, and completely unplug. I know I have the savings to quit and do something less strenuous, but I’m worried I wouldn’t find that satisfying/would feel guilty about not living up to my potential.

    • Lobbyist

      I get that way when I am over tired. Can you rest this weekend? Get a massage? Do something fun w friends? Or anything you find rejuvenating.

    • TO Lawyer

      Maybe Sheryl Sandberg does feel that way at times and just doesn’t admit it because she, of the “Lean In” philosophy can’t publicly admit it.

      I’m fairly new to my career but I’ve always been very ambitious. Now, that I’m done with school and see this as the rest of my life, there are times where I wish I could leave at 5 (and have a less intense job) like my other friends and not have to think about work in the evenings/weekends.

      However, when I think about my job when I’m not stressed and worn out, I realize that I probably wouldn’t be happy with an “easier” job where I could leave earlier and work less because I wouldn’t find it as challenging and rewarding as I find my current job. I hope that makes sense?

      Maybe you need a very restorative vacation and some distance?

      • OttLobbyist

        I think anyone who has a job that stays with them at the end of the day (or extends the end of your day or is just chaotic…) feels that way at some point.

        When I get to the teary stage, I try to do something different in my daily routine – switch walking routes to the office, move my start time a little bit, even going over to talk to a colleague instead of sending an email. It isn’t much but it stops the Groundhog Day feeling, which can bring down the sense of being overwhelmed, and the crankiness about *always* working.

        Good luck!

        • prof on a bike

          Yeah, I think one of the major downsides of having a job that stays with them at the end of the day that it feels like a zero sum game — any time I spend relaxing is time that I’m taking away from my research, which I also love, but which I recognize will make me insane if I let it totally dominate my life. Being highly invested in your work has definite downsides. My SO is really good about enforcing rules that help (eg keeping one weekend day entirely work free, email-less vacations), but there are times when I certainly feel overwhelmed and wish I’d chosen a different path. I can’t imagine that Sandberg doesn’t feel this way at times as well.

    • Anonymous

      Very strongly, yes. I feel this way and second-guess how I approached my career all the time. I finished my PhD at age 28 and went straight from that into 2 consecutive, very demanding positions requiring a total of 3 cross-country moves in 2 years. I worked constantly, yet never felt it was enough, never felt I had roots or solid friendships or even a consistent professional network around me, and all along knew there was no guaranteed long-term payoff (there still isn’t). I do kind of a jaded sarcastic laugh whenever someone says I’m “accomplished” or have a lot to be proud of, because I’m not sure at all anymore that it was worth it. I look at others in their early 30s who got the bachelors and then set about shaping a solid, cohesive career, in one city, and I think they have more going for them than I do, in a number of ways. Of course, there’s no telling how I would feel if I had done that. I might be fantasizing about everything I didn’t do and cursing myself for not trying. I made certain decisions in my early twenties based on what I perceived at the time, and I couldn’t have known then what I know now. I also distinctly remember a few older folks trying to caution me about the pressure, the burnout, etc., and I ignored them.

      As for Sandberg, I don’t think we can ever know how public figures really feel about their personal choices, but for what it’s worth she did say in Lean In that she has doubts about hers just like anyone else. I believe it.

      • thatsnotmyname

        I’m with you. I think getting into a PhD (that I am not using at all in my current job) was probably the worst career move I made, and that has set me back 6 years.

        • anon

          I can’t decide which decision was worse for me — the (7 yrs) PhD or the JD (3 yrs + 4 yrs of practice).

          • Hollis

            What are you doing with this double degree? Can you get a job in law teaching – academia will value your pedigree, and your lifestyle as a law instructor has to be pretty darn good, no?

          • Lady Harriet

            My mom got a PhD. in the mid-80’s. After one year her postdoc ended. She was unable to get a full-time job until 2012. She got her first research grant in 2010, working independently with a family friend, not sponsored by any university or large institution. She loves her job now, although it’s much more related to her Masters in education than her PhD in agronomy, but she’s way underpaid for someone with a PhD. She has a staff position at a university and makes at least a third less than faculty half her age with no more education. She loved grad school and doesn’t regret it per se, but she recognizes that the PhD really held back her career. The upside to a lack of career for so many years was that she was able to be a SAHM when my brother and I were little, which she 100% wanted to do. Of all the people from her PhD program, only one of them is actually working in their field and everyone else switched to something else because it was so impossible to find a job.

            When I was a college student and now that I work at a university many, many people here want to go into academia long-term. There’s this idea that grad school is always a good choice. Students look at their professors and want to follow the same path. What they don’t realize is that their professors are by definition the success stories–people who were able to get a decently paying job in their field right out of school–and it doesn’t happen that way for a lot of people. I’m most familiar with academia, but it happens in other fields too. A family friend graduated from law school this spring. He hasn’t been able to find an attorney job yet, so he’s doing the same think he did all through school and before he went to college: driving a cab.

      • Delphiki

        I made the jump and don’t regret it. I got my phd, was on a tenure-track position for a couple years and incredibly unhappy. I put the pressure on myself to achieve and there would be no ends to these outward achievements. Finally, the passing of a dear friend and roommate put an end to all that. When you watch someone die with cancer before the age of 30, you gain a whole different perspective on life. At her wake, people weren’t talking about her accomplishments (though she had many), they were talking about how kind and giving and happy she was. So I set a different kind of goals and abandoned the old career path. Now I work for non-profit that may be considered less prestigious (My current boss’s boss says in public that she’d like to help me get a ‘better’ job at university. I always politely decline.) The work’s still challenging, but my attitude’s changed.

    • Anon2

      All of my close friends from college are SAHMs now. I visited my old roommate the other week, and it was like stepping into a whole other universe. She has gobs of friends at the preschool and as neighbors. All these folks with so much time during the day. It was wondeful. Folks dropped by throughout the day to drop off kids for play dates or pick up kids for play dates. Everyone seemed so relaxed and happy. One dropped off a recipe. I barely have time to get real groceries some weeks. I definitely feel like I made a wrong turn somewhere. I don’t even feel like all the money is worth it anymore. What’s the point of having nice clothes and such if you never have time to actually go anywhere in them? DH’s a workaholic (and more successful, too) so not sure how the loop stops for us anyway.

    • emeralds

      Speaking as a high-achieving student who could have been on track for a very high-achieving career if I had wanted to be, but bailed the F out because I discovered during my last year of college that I like having a life and my mental health more than I like adhering to what society told me was the “right” thing to do as an “ambitious, high-achieving” person…I think, if you’re unhappy, that it’s worth taking a long, hard look at what you really value. If it’s having a high-status, high-intensity career, then bam. Go after that. Make the sacrifices that you need to achieve it, and accept that you will be sacrificing those things–having a regular 9-5 schedule, having time off, being less stressed.

      And FWIW, I think that there are a lot more opportunities in “easier” jobs, like the ones that I have had/will have again when I’m done with grad school, than people here tend to assume. I work in higher ed, for example, and while I’m never going to have sustained BigLaw hours (thank God) there are tons of projects screaming for people with time and initiative to really own them–assessment, evaluation, examining budgets, fundraising and development, staying on top of current research and proposing new programs, presenting at conferences, etc. I honestly think that, while some jobs are objectively “easier” than others in terms of time commitment or stress level, that the vast majority are what you make of them. Just meaning that as food for thought.

      • Walnut

        At what point does overachieving at a less intense job just turn into promotions into the very job you were looking to avoid?

        • Batgirl

          Well, I work at a nonprofit (after some time in Big Law) and while I am challenged day in, day out, I generally leave my work behind at 6:30 every night. Sure, I’ll have a call or an email here or there after hours or on the weekend, but my colleagues really do respect the idea of unplugging and spending time with family and friends. So there’s hope! But yes, I still feel stressed between the hours of 930-630–it’s just a bit more manageable!

    • Anonymous

      I think I just need to add that some people have interesting jobs in a 9-5 environment, so not all “less demanding jobs” are “less interesting” by default. My “dream job” still has regular hours, PTO, and no working nights/weekends.

      • Marilla

        Agreed – I think this depends on the field though. I went into policy work instead of actual politics (or law) not only because it fits my personality better but also because the hours are usually pretty normal, unless we’re flat out on a major project. I recently turned down a higher-profile opportunity precisely because I want to guard my newfound normal work/life balance. There may be fewer of these opportunities in fields like law, IB, etc.

      • Monday

        Agreed–plenty of sane jobs are interesting. Also, when you have predictable and reasonable hours, you can do other interesting things with your time–reading, cultural events, classes, travel etc–whereas the high-powered job often forces you to be very mentally narrow. Even if you find it really interesting, you’re limited.

      • Orangerie

        This. I work in finance (client facing), and outside of travel and the busy 3-4 weeks of reporting deadlines after each quarter ends, my hours are pretty solidly 8-5. My job is demanding but my firm culture also emphasizes having a life.

      • Interrobanged

        I’m going to have to agree with this. I was in private practice and litigation for six years working 10-12 hour days, six days per week. Then one of my clients offered me an in-house job out of the blue. I would never have even considered going in-house, always saw myself as a partner in a law firm, and thought that working in-house would be a big step down in terms of prestige, money, and “interestingness” of the work. I eventually took the in-house position for a variety of reasons.

        The first year was rough. I was miserable. I regretted leaving private practice intensely. But gradually I realized and understood that this was not a lesser position than being a full-time practicing attorney. I am now VP of the department that originally hired me. I report to the CEO. I work about 50 hours per week. I have regular hours, too, and I can work from home one day per week if I want to. And the work is VERY interesting because I get to shape company policy and supervise outside counsel in cases all over the country.

      • Anon

        Yep. I wouldn’t say my job as a government lawyer* is my “dream” job but it’s pretty interesting, reasonably challenging, and almost always 40 hours a week.

        *Do your research on this, though. Some government lawyers I know work crazy hours and are very underpaid for how hard they work.

    • SAlit-a-gator

      I was burned out, we had to relocate, and I got a slow boat job in my field and realized I’m one of those unfortunate people who really needs to be challenged…just not to the point of tears. That feeling was terrible though….I should have been happy and enjoyed the great hours, but I just felt like I was wasting my life away. Take some time for yourself this weekend (the massage suggestion above is excellent!) and get plenty of sleep. Also, when was the last time you took a vacation? Just planning a vacation is exciting and gives you a light at the end of the tunnel to work towards. Also, it’s not all or nothing. I’m sure there are some middle ground options in your field where you could be engaged and challenged but not on the verge of tears every day. I’m not saying there are a lot of those jobs out there, but maybe spend some time thinking about what would be a good fit for you long term and what you need to do now to get there in the future.

    • cbackson

      First off, it’s normal to feel this way and it doesn’t necessarily mean that you’ve made the wrong career choice. It CAN mean that, but that’s the only thing that it means. All of us with demanding jobs have felt fried, burnt out, exhausted, despairing – it comes with the territory.

      And you know what? There are plenty of people who opted for less demanding career paths who also question the trade-offs that they’ve made from time to time. I work with a contract attorney from time to time who straight-up admitted to me, for example, that if she’d known what taking seven years as a stay-at-home mother would do to her career, she’d never have left her law firm. Her classmates are partners now. She loved the time with her kids, but the options that are open to her now aren’t exciting or fulfilling to her, and she’s come to the conclusion that she made the wrong choice. So everyone feels this, in one way or another, at some point.

      In your specific situation, it’s obvious that there’s something you need that you’re not getting. It could be as simple as rest and a break; it could be as major as a career change. It could be that you need a new hobby or a new way of disconnecting yourself at the end of the day. It could be that you need a new life partner, or to change your current life partner. It could be that you need to do the same job somewhere else.

      It could be all manner of things, but unless you can get a mental and physical break, you won’t know which one it is. TRy to get that time for yourself, so you can figure out what need you have that’s going unmet, and then you’ll know what choices to make.

    • Manhattanite

      OMG yes!!! I hate my job. When I went to law school, I was planning to position myself for in-house. Instead, because my husband’s job keeps us in Manhattan, I’m in patent litigation. I hate litigation. I hate arguing for the sake of arguing. I hate the winner-takes-all approach. I hate being nickel-and-dimed over my expenses (really, i need to get prior approval to take a cab ride home at 10pm?). I hate that I don’t spend enough time at work to succeed enough there, but don’t spend enough time at home with the result being that my child prefers my husband. I hate that I have to work harder than my husband to earn less. And I really hate that the feeling that I don’t have the right skills to get hired for a slow boat job.

      • Hollis

        Are you looking into in-house positions? There is a huge demand for people with your experience you know, especially here on the west coast. Or, can you switch to patent prosecution or to soft IP?

    • Romey

      OP, I often feel that way! You know what though, the grass is seriously always greener. I think it’s hard for women who are very ambitious and career oriented because you don’t want to feel like you’ve “failed” so you stick with your high paying and extremely demanding job even though it’s stressful and it may not be fulfilling. But would you be 100% fulfilled if you took that 9-5 job and had your salary cut in half or more? I’m starting to realize that there really just isn’t an ideal situation.

    • KLG

      I don’t know if I’m less ambitious than I always thought I was or if I just got tired of the stress that comes with being ambitious but I left litigation (where felt like crying every day) to work for the federal government in a boring 9-5 (40 hours, no overtime, no weekends) and it definitely ended up being the right decision for me. Honestly, the hardest part was getting over myself. After a lifetime of trying to be the best, going to a great high school, college, law school, getting scholarships and awards, etc. I felt like if I quit what I was doing then I was a big fat failure in life. But I was miserable and the money wasn’t enough to make up for it. Now my job isn’t that interesting on a day to day basis, but my supervisors compliment my work often, people are nice, and while I have certain numbers I need to hit, it’s nothing like the kind of stress I experienced before. I don’t really need my job to be interesting anymore because I’m only there for 40 hours and I have time to do things outside of work. My workdays are entirely predictable and I do not think about work outside of work. Everyone jokes that this is a perfect working mother job and I agree. Sure I wish I made more money and I often think that I could have made this much just a few years out of college, but the fact that I don’t dread going to work, have never cried (or wanted to cry) in my office, and sleep 8 hours a night with no difficulty falling asleep have turned out to be worth it. It’s much easier to go grocery shopping and cook dinner (and other money saving stuff) when you get home at 6 pm and don’t work on the weekends. I know some of my former coworkers think I’m selling myself short, but I have no plans to leave my current position

    • ANON

      I was in public accounting for 7 years. The breaking point for me was when I had family in town for Easter and I had to work over Easter weekend (tax deadlines). I realized I will never look back at my life and say – I wish I would have worked more hours and made more money. We live in a really cheap (for our income) house and I realized I was working too hard just to save more money. I got burnt out and super depressed. I found a new job working in house (as attorneys call it). I received a 23% raise and I never work more than 40 hours. It’s been great for me. I feel like I have my life back. Remember – your body knows you well, it’s trying to tell you something.

      • Anon

        This is how I see it – I just can’t see myself on my deathbed saying “I wish I’d worked more” or “I wish I’d had a bigger house” or “I wish I’d bought designer clothes.” I just really, really can’t imagine that happening. I’m in one of my first jobs out of school and it’s a typical 9-5 position without a lot of stress. After always feeling driven (especially in high school but also in college), it’s somewhat of a surprise for me to be happy with the hours and lifestyle. I’m looking for a new job that’s a better fit work-wise, but I have already ruled out law school and other paths that would probably lead me to really demanding jobs. If I could find an interesting 40-hour per week job (50 at most) in a field I like, I could probably stay there for a long, long time.

        • ANON

          A lot of the people I used to work with framed it as – well then my kids can’t go to private school, or then we can’t go to Hawaii every year, or then we would have to sell our condo in the mountains. But if you aren’t happy day to day what is one week in Hawaii or your condo in the mountains once a week (that you sit at and work)?

          Being in public accounting I saw a lot of things from the other side since I had the inside look at their life through finances. We did primarily high net worth individuals so typically these people had demanding jobs where they made a ton of money, many were partners in law firms. Some people had family money which is a whole different issue. I saw more situations than I can count where both parents worked very demanding jobs and their children were in private school, etc. From the outside it looked like the perfect life. Until you see medical expenses of $25,000 for rehab for their 16 year old child or for themselves. Or suddenly you get a phone call that they’re getting divorced when from the outside it seemed that everything was perfect.

          What it comes down to is when your life isn’t balanced something has to give.

        • dancinglonghorn

          OTOH, I come from a working-class family where people were very smart but worked in jobs where they never got to use their intelligence or skills (think factory work, lunch ladies, taxi drivers, etc.). This literally killed them – everyone in my family turned to drink before 40 out of sheer boredom and exasperation. I knew that I never wanted a job where I stagnate because I think that for people who thrive on challenge and learning, its the kiss of death.

          To me, its all about values. I do my work not just for the money but because I genuinely thrive on my work. I love having an arena where I can intellectually develop and thrive. I can say that friends who took easier jobs have stagnated intellectually and don’t have current skills anymore. Staying current is difficult and demanding. I do agree that it must be hard to stay motivated if you are doing long hours just for the money. In my field, people who are in it for the money don’t last very long!

          Also, I have a great family life and a husband with a full-time career. We’re not planning a divorce anytime soon and have plenty of family time! Often, its about prioritizing and scheduling work – In my field, you can be at home when your kids get home from school and pick the work back up once they have gone to bed, which really helps.

    • Anona

      This is a really great conversation, and I definitely hear you. Because of kids, mainly, I am currently perhaps in one of those theoretically great gigs–government service with hours I have a lot of control over. I previously worked in BigLaw and clerked and both were longer hours. I have to say, I feel both sides of this–it’s great to have the kind of control and limited hours commitment (relatively speaking; I still work 40-50 hours a week, but never weekends)–but I miss the zing of BigLaw more than a bit. When I’m feeling a bit glum about the particular trade-off I have currently, my line is generally that I am not “being the best I can be.”

      That said, DH is a partner in BigLaw and our lives would.not.work if I had similar time requirements/constraints. We often talk about his associate (my peers, because I’m younger than him) and while I’m jealous of what their doing and the skills they are acquiring, I do not at all envy them; it seems harder than even a few years ago when I was in BigLaw. Posts from ladies on thissite recently about why they like their BigLaw gigs reminded me that I was that person, but the daily grind, plus never (never!) seeing my kids with that schedule make me realize it’s not something I can do right now.

      Final thoughts: it’s not an all-or-nothing. I keep reminding myself that even if I’m taking it a little slow professionally for these few years while our kids are young (plus time off for having them), it’s okay, because my career is not a sprint, it’s a marathon. I truly believe that there will be a time when I am capital-L Leaning In, but that time is just not right now.

    • TBK

      The thing is, if you’re the kind of person who really needs a more demanding lifestyle, you’ll make your work expand to fill your time whether your primary job requires it or not. In my current job, I get home by 6:00 almost every night. I have never, since graduating from college, had a job where I got home so early. Nights when I have nothing else to do for the evening, I wind up restless. Most of the time, though, my evenings and weekends are taken up by the GC work I do for a small company part-time, the volunteer organization I belong to, and the new charity my husband and I are working to found. That’s on top of a more than full-time job. But if I look back, I was always like this. I once added up my hours in college for class time, studying, work/study, and extra-curriculars, and it was about 100 hrs/wk on average — my only free time each week was from about 10:00pm-3:00am on Friday and Saturday nights. If you have that personality type, even if you try to downshift, you might just wind up as overscheduled as you’ve always been.

      • TO Lawyer

        This is a tangent but you are awesome. This is the kind of life I want but somehow can’t manage to have. I also get restless if I get home early and have no plans but haven’t found something yet to fill my extra time.

        • TBK

          Aw, thanks. Somehow I think some of this will fall by the wayside and be taken up by TWIN BABIES ALL THE TIME, but I enjoy what I do for now.

      • dancinglonghorn

        +1!

        My mom- who was very unfulfilled because she was a SAHM when she had this type of personality – filled all her evenings with involved in community theater! She now runs a theater company. But ironically – even thought she was supposedly a “SAHM”- I saw less of her once she got involved in the community theater than if she had just had a job! (This is probably why SAHM’s in the 50’s spent less time with their children than working moms today!)

        I think personality is a huge thing! I ‘m the type of person who is obsessive about my work – like, I literally can’t stop thinking about it sometimes. But once I stopped resisting that aspect of my personality and learned to embrace it, I was able to make better choices for my lifestyle and am very happy!

  5. Sydney Bristow

    I’m thinking of buying this London Fog coat (link below). I’ve never bought this brand before so I’m wondering what others think about the quality. I have a coat that is warm but I don’t really like it because I think it is a little casual in both fabric and cut. I’m looking for something sleeker but want to make sure it is still warm. What do you all think?

      • Sydney Bristow

        In case the link doesn’t work it is the London Fog Wool Blend Trench Coat.

    • Monday

      I have a London Fog trench in dark purple. It’s held up wonderfully for 3 years. I only wear it on rainy days, generally, but truly it looks the same as it did brand new.

      • Anon

        I have a tan trench and it’s held up really well (I think I’ve had it 3 years now?). Great quality.

    • LizNYC

      I think it’s really cute, but classic. And London Fog has a great reputation for wearing well. In fact (and please don’t let this deter you), my parents and grandparents for years only bought LF coats because of their durability.

      • Marilla

        Agreed on the reputation – I’ve never had a LF coat but remember my mom commenting favourably on their quality/durability.

    • Godzilla

      Agreed on the reputation – I’ve never had a LF coat but remember my mom commenting favourably on their quality/durability.

  6. emeralds

    Can I get a TGIF? This has been the longest. week. ever. Does anyone have any fun plans this weekend? I’m headed to a beer tasting on Saturday, then over to a friend’s for game night. But mostly I’m excited to SLEEP.

    • NOLA

      I have almost nothing planned this weekend – and that’s great! Had a ton going on last weekend including lots of singing and was really sick. Now I’m just trying to rest and get better because my SO gets in on Tuesday. His birthday is on Sunday so I’m trying to plan some fun things for his visit. I think the Flonase is causing my smell/taste loss so I’m going to go off of it so I can taste food next week!

    • Marilla

      Yes to extreme TGIF/super long week! I have Monday off (government offices close for Remembrance Day in Canada), and this is always my annual me-time day since my husband and most of my friends will be at work. I’m debating what I’d like to do.. I think some combination of organizing one of our out of control closets, hemming a dress that’s been pinned and waiting for a while, walking down to Sephora to try out new concealers, and doing some fun baking (pumpkin/hazelnut cinnamon rolls from Serious Eats!) or cooking (beef stew to freeze for winter dinners). And chilling on the couch doing my nails. And being a good citizen and attending a memorial ceremony. I’m having difficulty picking, obviously.

      • TO Lawyer

        I am so jealous of everyone who gets Remembrance Day off – I could really use a long weekend. I vote for Sephora – but that’s coming from someone who basically spent 2 hours this week wandering around Sephora just looking at all the pretty things

        • AMB

          It’s the biggest shopping day of the year in Ottawa as all the bureaucrats can head off to the mall to start getting ready for Christmas. I’ll be in Mtl for the weekend but heading back earlier than usual to have time to do groceries and laundry – oh so much laundry.

    • amelia earhart

      My only plan is to take my mom to Sephora to use my 20% VIB friend coupon. I’m very excited at the prospect of otherwise being a bum and watching Love Actually and The New Girl on Netflix all weekend.

      • wildkitten

        I’m VIB but have no coupons. Do you get them online? Do they mail them to you? What am I missing out on?

        • Marilla

          You should receive an email. For online, I think the code is VIBTOPIA but you need the coupon for in-store purchases.

        • TO Lawyer

          They are usually emailed but if you didn’t get one and you have your rewards card in store, they will give you the discount anyways. I didn’t have to show them my email yesterday because it came up automatically on the system,

        • amelia earhart

          I got an email, but I also got two 20% off cards, one for me and one for a friend!

    • anonforthis

      Hell to the yes. Been struggling with all-day morning sickness and Zofran is not the wonder drug I was hoping it would be so I am looking forward to not leaving my bed or my couch ALL weekend.

    • Anonymous

      Those are not going to work with anything other than jeans. If you don’t want shoes that only work for that purpose, then I would return them. They definitely do not go with skirts or dresses.

    • Niktaw

      I have a “jeans-only” pair of shoes and I wear them a lot. We have casual dress code on Fridays + I wear them for all the errands and daytime activities on weekends. The shoes are very comfortable and with 2-inch heels I feel that I look put together.
      Your shoes can also be worn with cords and tweed-y trousers, with sweaters, button-down shirts, cardigans or sweater jackets on top. So I think they have potential for biz-casual office wear.

    • S in Chicago

      They definitely read jeans or cords to me –but that’s not a bad thing sometimes. I feel like I’m always on a quest for something like this with a comfy heel for weekends or traveling when you want something nicer than tennis shoes to do a lot of walking in. That said, for me, having one pair of this sort fills most of my needs, since I spend work days in skirts and dresses usually (these don’t seem like skirt or dress shoes to me, even if casual). I think if you’re wavering, it’s better to skip. There are enough cute things in the world, why waste your time on something that you already don’t feel will be 100 percent what you want?

      If you’re looking for something with a similar comfy heel that works well with pants as well as skirts, I’d recommend checking out some of the mary jane or strap styles instead. Or maybe booties? I have a pair of mary jane Clarks that are great for walking and look fine with jeans but can still get use with sweater dresses, cord skirts, and the like. These aren’t mine, but they look kind of similar:

      http://www.zappos.com/clarks-sapphire-stel-black-leather

      Or something like this would also be a little more open to pant as well as skirt wear:

      http://www.zappos.com/clarks-town-cloak-black-leather

    • HSAL

      No other outfit ideas, but I recently bought a pair of shoes that I can only wear with cords and jeans. Given that they’ll be my only casual shoes I wear all fall/winter, I’m okay with the fact that they won’t get much wear otherwise. Consider “use” as how much you’ll wear them with jeans, not what else they could go with.

      • Shoe TJ

        Good point. I really love them with jeans and they are SO comfy and a very good fall/winter shoe, but their lack of versatility is disappointing.

  8. and I'll cry if i want to

    Hey Ladies – I have a really silly boy problem.

    Tonight’s my birthday party, about 25/35 people, at a cocktail bar. I did one of those mass Facebook invitations to everyone who lives in my city and inadvertently invited two men I have kind of dated. Last night both of them texted me to say how excited they are about the party.

    Both are technically my “friends,” but our relationships tend to wax and wane. One I see every few months for drinks or dinner, and we typically end up fooling around. The other lived in another town for the majority of the time I’ve known him, but recently moved here. We were seeing each other more regularly but then decided we should just be friends. Still – neither of these relationships are quite platonic. I.e., if only one of them were coming to my party, he’d be there as my date.

    Obviously, an awkward mistake to have them both there, but it’s too late now. Any tips on how to navigate this? For what it’s worth, I think they’re really similar (in age, personality, job, etc) – it seems like they could either really hit it off or the whole thing could turn into some kind of p*ssing contest. Help!

    • Ginjury

      If you invited both of them via Facebook and didn’t initiate any conversation about it, neither should be under the impression that they’re going as anything more than your friend. Unless they’re know to to immature, I wouldn’t worry too much about it, especially since there will be so many people there.

      • emeralds

        +1. A mass Facebook invite is not the same as you texting them individually to be all, “Bachelor #1, it’s my birthday and it would mean so much to me if you could be there,” and any adult with a functional brain should know that.

    • AIMS

      I think this sounds like it could be fun! I wouldn’t worry about it and just try to have fun.

      • wildkitten

        + 10 Multiple handsome men flirting with you on your birthday, and a party with all your best friends? That sounds awesome.

        • AnnonFoo

          Exactly ! I would love to have a similar birthday party with two interested men, co*ktail bar and friends, you should enjoy yourself, it is your day.

    • Eleanor

      I think if you just act like there’s no problem, and treat them both as friends, it should be ok so long as they’re not high-drama people. Also try to see the humor in the situation – this is kind of funny. Good luck!

    • posey

      I wouldn’t worry too much about it, but I would have some sort of exit plan just so it’s not 2 am and you’re at the bar with both of them trying to take you home.

    • Walnut

      No advice, but the hive wants to hear the follow up story on how it went on Monday.

    • elz

      I accidentally did this about 15 years ago, not through FaceBook, but ended up inviting 2 guys I was sort of seeing to a party. Only one came, and he is now my husband.

  9. Ashley

    Threadjack! My husband and I are both lawyers, and we both have student loans. Our current plan is to buy a home next summer. However, I’m starting to wonder if we should nix that plan and focus on paying off our loans aggressively and just put the house on hold. I’d like to talk to someone about our options…..I don’t know if I should speak to a financial planner? An accountant? What type of professionals out there would be the best to give us advice in this situation? Let me know if you need any other information to answer my question. TIA!

    • Bonnie

      A lot of it depends on the interest rate of your student loans. Mine were low, so my financial adviser recommended that I decrease my payments because I could get more bang for the extra money in investments. It may help you to speak with a mortgage advisor at a bank who can go through the numbers with you and explain just how much home you can afford.

      • Ashley

        Key word to your response….financial advisor. So you think a financial advisor would be better to talk to than an accountant? I just want to give someone all my financial info (our salaries, our student loans and interest rates, etc.) and they give me two spreadsheets…..option A showing what happens if we pay off student loans now and then buy a house in X years or option B showing what happens if we buy the house next summer (we’re currently saving for a down payment and only doing the minimums on our student loans) and the money we’ll save from the tax benefits of owning.

        • Pink

          Yup. FA. We had some person come do one our 3L year and showed us how the guy who did minimums and saved the rest did better with compound interest. (ie. Option A, spend $3000/month on loans, pay off early, pay less interest. Option B, spend $3000/month on loans and saving, pay off later, pay more interest, but have $X in savings)

    • MJ

      What you want is a fee-only certified financial planner. They can help you with a query like this.

        • cbackson

          Not paid on commission – so they don’t profit on selling you investment products.

          I’d suggest LearnVest, which I use and love.

  10. Tiger

    I am expecting an offer to join another law firm. While interviewing, I said I could start in January. They’re okay with that but clearly have an immediate need. I would love to start immediately. The problem? I’m currently on maternity leave. I hate my current firm. Their treatment of me drastically changed in May shortly after I announced my pregnancy and they have expressly said I’m on the mommy track even though I stated I do not intend to reduce my hours or effort since I have a supportive husband who can step in for me. I’m supposed to return to work on 11/17. When is the earliest I should start at the new firm? I want to burn the fewest bridges possible, although I realize leaving so soon after maternity leave will have a negative impact.

    • mascot

      When do you get off of maternity leave? Also, is there a chance that your old firm will seek recoupment of your maternity benefits (no idea if you can even do that)?

      • Tiger

        Maternity leave ends 11/17. And I have no idea whether they will. We have no written policies. Smallish firm.

      • Flying Squirrel

        Um, wouldn’t that be illegal? I thought maternity leave benefits were something you earned through service…which is why I, as a new employee, will be getting very few :(

        • anonfish

          Nope, they can do it. Many companies/firms do. Probably better if they have a written policy around it but they can do it.

    • Bewitched

      I would give one month’s notice-then either start with new firm in mid December to have a nice quiet transition into work, or maybe take the last two weeks as family time and start with new firm at the very beginning of January. That’s professional, and every firm who is recruiting has “an immediate need”. If they said they could survive without you until January, I’d take them at their word.

    • Nellie

      Why go back at all? Your leave is almost up; you can quit. That wouldn’t be the best way to proceed if you didn’t already hate your firm and feel marginalized, but they aren’t showing you loyalty or respect, so why tie yourself in knots for them? Alternatively, go back and give two weeks’ notice right away, to wind things down. I bet they will tell you not to bother with the two weeks. They sound like d*cks, why worry about burning a bridge to them when you’ve got another opportunity lined up?

      Then, go start helping ASAP at the new place.

    • Baconpancakes

      How many projects are you currently responsible for? Is there anyone who will need to be briefed on your responsibilities over the long term? Since you’re on maternity leave, you probably don’t have too much waiting for you, but it’s best to cover your bases. The best way to avoid burning bridges is to stay long enough to train someone else to take over without leaving your previous company in the lurch.

      • Tiger

        This is the biggest reason I’m leaving. They pulled all of my cases weeks before my due date without telling me and without it being necessary. So I have no work right now. I guess they will assign me new cases but I’m still pissed I can’t finish my old cases.

        • Nellie

          I think it would be burning the bridge WAY more to go back, let them assign you all new cases, and then leave. I would resign.

          • Bewitched

            I disagree. I think she should tell them now (before she returns) that a new opportunity became available and that she plans to accept the opportunity, but she wants to give them the option of having her return for 4 weeks to “transition her workload” and make new plans. I realize there is not much to transition, but they can then say that’s not necessary and [x] day can be her last day with firm. Most places (no matter how big) are small towns when you come right down to the legal community and I would think the last thing you would want is to have the reputation of leaving without giving notice. I realize the firm has been awful, but I would want to walk away and be able to say-I gave them appropriate notice. Even if she doesn’t have a workload now, the firm might appreciate a few weeks to try to hire a replacement or find a temp etc. But, that’s just my opinion. I would always give notice, no matter what the circumstances, unless the firm had done something illegal or unethical.

  11. NKV9

    T-Day TJ. I’m looking for hosting advice/ideas for a multi-family event. DH and I are hosting our first Thanksgiving. Both of our families will be there – my small immediate and a more extended group from his side (which includes several different family groups because of divorces, kids from first marriages, etc.). Everyone is really great, but the group we’ll be hosting hasn’t spent much time together and several people will be meeting for the first time. I don’t want Thanksgiving to be too “planned” or gimmicky, but I think it might be helpful to have a game or activity as sort of an ice breaker if needed. I’ve always found white elephant exchanges at Christmas to be a good way for random groups to bond – any thoughts on what might be a good Thanksgiving equivalent? Any other ideas on how to make everyone feel welcome and included? Thanks!

    • Brant

      Some kind of outdoor game (flag football, softball, etc)? Watching a sports game? Having everyone say what they are thankful for? Or write it down and then read some aloud ?

    • AttiredAttorney

      I love having fun, low key board games and such out with the appetizers when guests arrive. Boggle, game of things, apples to apples, etc. Take them out of the boxes and leave them right next to the food. A “natural” game almost always begins.

        • hoola hoopa

          I was also thinking jigsaw puzzle.

          I wouldn’t worry about it much, though. First, most people understand that they need to make an effort at occasions like this. If one particular person seems left out, ask someone to include them. Second, even if they stay to their own corners but have a good time, then call the night a success.

    • Senior Attorney

      We had a grand old time one year playing “Apples to Apples.” It’s good for all ages and fast paced.

      A good icebreaker game is this: As everybody arrives, put a nametag on his or her back. It can be a fictional character, celebrity, or whatever, as long as it is a name that will be known by everyone present. The object of the game is to guess “who you are” (i.e. what name is on your back). You have to ask “yes or no” questions of the other guests, no more than three questions of any one person. E.g. “Am I currently living?” “Am I a fictional character?” “Do I wear tights?” Winner is the first person to guess, and you can have a prize if you like.

      This is a great game for groups where people don’t know one another very well because it gets people talking to everybody in the room. I like to have extra name tags so if you guess you character you can start over with another if you like.

      And speaking of name tags, I love name tags in general. When my late father-in-law threw himself a 90th birthday party, he made name tags for everybody with their name and relationship to him. E.g. “Ann — former lady friend,” “Mary — daughter in law.” You might want to consider something like that. I know I would love you beyond measure if you did that with a group where I didn’t know the players and their relationships. You could even be clever and color-code them for “your side” and “his side.”

      Good luck!

      • Jenna Rink

        I think Apples to Apples is a perfect Thanksgiving game. Any number of people can play, it’s entertaining for anyone else who wants to hang out but not play, and there’s enough downtime that people can chat between turns. We play every year and it’s one of my favorite parts of the day.

    • R

      Will kids be there? You can play a game where the kids have to get info from adults, which makes it easier for people to participate even if they’re not “game people.” Something like a scavenger hunt – find someone who has a $5 bill in his wallet, find two people who like the same vegetable, etc. Kids are pretty good at getting an entire room to talk and help them win.

      If no kids, you can do a “casino” type setup – random 2-4 player games (war, outburst, LCR, those basic games that cost $5 at walmart) where the winners get tokens for say, picking the next TV show we watch, or first bite of turkey, or chance at the wishbone, or whatever.

    • away game

      How well do you know all the guests? Because these types of games/ icebreakers would be about the fifth level of hell for me. If you go this route, have a hide -in -the -kitchen option for introverts. No, really…..I would rather wash those dishes.

  12. BB

    I’m feeling a bit of shopping guilt. I splurged on a new suit from the Saks sale this morning and it’s probably about $300 more than I’m usually comfortable spending. But, but it’s so cute and such a basic color/style…right? I’ve also been trying to talk myself into the fact that if it isn’t absolutely perfect, I can return it for free at the store. Sigh…damn sales. :P

    It’s here in case you’re curious: http://www.saksfifthavenue.com/main/ProductDetail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524446653493&R=4043292913395&P_name=Escada&sid=41383886277469&Ntt=bilgay&N=0&bmUID=k8U2YLJ

    • AttiredAttorney

      It is GORGEOUS. If I had $800 to spend on a suit, it would be that one.

    • anon-oh-no

      its lovely. totally keep it. If it fits well when it arrives, you will wind up wearing it a lot.

  13. tesyaa

    Weight control threadjack. Sigh… my scale says 130. My high school weight was 116, for much of my adult life I was 120, and I’d be happy at 125. This creep upwards is bothering me. I eat healthily but I’m not active, and I really don’t have time to work out much (I have 6 kids and work full time) – even a 30 minute walk each day would help, I know. Also, I don’t have enough motivation to lose those 5-10 pounds, because my clothes all still fit. Any tips on eating less without feeling hungry? I already know I shouldn’t eat after 8 pm, since those evening snacks are unnecessary calories and I’ve lost weight this way before back in postpartum days. Just looking for a little encouragement.

    • Romey

      6 kids, and full time wow! You are superwoman. You say you eat healthy….can you describe typical meals that you eat?

      • tesyaa

        Yogurt or cereal/milk for breakfast. Sandwich for lunch (usually tuna or cheese), lots of fruit and vegetables. Dinner – pasta OR soup OR salmon with more fresh fruit and vegetables. Meat/chicken 2 or 3 times per week. I snack too much, I know that’s my downfall. Chocolate is my weakness (not salty snacks like chips, I can resist those).

        I’ve always had a pretty good metabolism (inherited from my parents) and never really had to worry about my weight, except postpartum. Given that adding significant exercise to my routine is not going to happen, I need a way to avoid eating from boredom.

        Just typing this is helping a lot in realizing what my bad habits are, so thanks for asking!

        • Romey

          Tesyya, if you do not have time to workout then you totally need to change your eating habits if you want to lose weight. Drop the cereal, sandwich and pasta and sugar. Give yourself a cheat day or two. But you should try to eat less processed foods and more whole foods. I was always 120 all throughout college, law school. That was my normal weight. I was fine with it. When I started working, I had less time to workout so I changed my eating habits by trying to eat a lot less processed foods. Instead of a granola bar I’ll have an apple. Instead of cereal for breakfast I’ll have eggs (which keep you fuller longer). I lost about 5-7 pounds just from eating like that!

          You could also do a food diary. I have a food diary with my girlfriend where we write what we eat every day to keep us accountable. That way instead of snacking when you’re bored, you’ll be thinking, ok I really don’t want to write down that I had half a can of pringles!

          • tesyaa

            I think you hit the nail on the head with the processed carbs. I already thought that I need to cut out pasta almost entirely. I thought of having another sandwich instead of pasta on pasta nights, but maybe plain tuna or a chicken cutlet with a salad would be even better. These are biggish changes to my routine since twice a week I make a pot of pasta for the whole family, but at the moment, crossing the 130 barrier has got me motivated.

          • Anonymous

            I agree with cutting pasta. I never eat pasta and maybe eat a sandwich once a week. Once you get those things out of your diet you really don’t miss them. If you need easy go-to meals trying replacing the pasta with crockpot/slow cooker meal days.

          • hoola hoopa

            Snacking is also my downfall. It sounds silly, but I find it helpful to have a glass of water or a cup of herbal tea when I want to snack. I find that I’m often eating because I’m thirsty or just want something in my hands. I eat something if I’m still hungry, but I’m usually satiated.

            A person’s metabolism *generally* slows at the rate of 100/cal per day every 10 years. So if you could maintain your weight at 1500 cal 10 years ago, you now only get 1400. Every few years I count calories for a week just to make sure that I’m not drifting off course or to highlight habits to change, but I don’t have to actually “diet.”

          • AIMS

            @ tesyaa: What kind of pasta do you make? I usually try to do a LOT of veggies with it and when I am watching what I eat I just try to have 3/4 veggies and 1/4 pasta. Also, I go for whole wheat pastas (which don’t all taste like cardboard!) — maybe making those tweaks can help you keep traditions and still lose those 5 lbs.

        • PolyD

          I pretty much have the same weight story as you, except no kids. I have to agree with the other posters here that reducing carbs/sugar is probably the way to go. I switched from toast and cereal for breakfast to toast (I love my toast!) and yogurt. I used to have a small snack (nuts and dried fruit, usually) with a cup of coffee mid-morning, now I just have coffee with some milk in it and usually don’t have the snack (except when someone leaves candy corn in the break room, dang it!). I am trying to avoid carbs elsewhere, too.

          I do think adding exercise also helps, especially strength building. Lifting weights and taking ballet classes had a much bigger impact on my body than hours of half-hearted cardio.

          And, I know what you mean by wanting to be aware even though your weight isn’t that high and your clothes still fit. I think it’s more wanting to make sure you pay attention and don’t all of a sudden find yourself much heavier than you want. I think it’s easier to prevent weight gain than to lose it once it’s there.

    • Godzilla

      Maybe I’m not understanding the problem but if your clothes still all fit, why does the number on the scale matter? Stop weighing yourself. Problem solved.

      • tesyaa

        !

        I have thought of that – clothes fit, why worry? – but eventually, I am thinking it will catch up with me and be harder to get a handle on. I tried telling myself I weigh more due to increased muscle weight, but given that I don’t exercise, it’s not convincing.

        • mascot

          So if you are happy with the way you look, happy with how your clothes fit, and you are generally healthy, I’d stop fretting about trying to lose the weight. An easier goal may be to keep from gaining more rather than getting back to some place you were X years ago.

          • Senior Attorney

            +1

            Dieting makes you fatter. I’d concentrate on maintaining where you are. I wish I’d done that at 130 rather than dieting my way to 175 and having to take drastic measures!

          • Kelly

            Dieting doesn’t make you fatter. Eating poorly does. So if your “diet” is processed low-cal fake foods, etc., then yeah, you can gain weight and be less healthy, or your diet can suck so bad that you cheat you way into gaining. But there are plenty of ways to diet that entail eating healthily and losing weight. And losing 5 pounds is possible; it’s a little overboard to suggest otherwise just to be PC.

          • Godzilla

            Actually Kelly, there is a whole psychological component behind “dieting” that causes these loss-gain cycles that eventually lead to an overall weight gain.

          • Anonymous

            Exactly. Dieting doesn’t make you fatter. Going off the rails when a diet is “over” makes you fatter. Eating well (unprocessed, whole foods in reasonable portions, allowing treats in small moderation) will help you lose weight. And, if you want to lose weight, I don’t understand why anyone wants to make you feel bad about it. Weight gain is generally not a good thing. It might be inevitable as you get older, but there’s no reason not to look at your eating habits and ask: How can I do better?

            For me, adding protein is key. I love starchy carbs and cheese and would always prefer that combination to anything else, but I know that starchy carbs make me hungrier quicker and protein keeps me full longer.

          • Anon

            Honestly, if someone goes on a diet every five years to lose 5 lbs, are they really in a vicious gain-loss cycle? Gaining a pound a year seems like something that normally happens with age as your metabolism slows down… going on a diet for a month probably isn’t going to tip someone over the deep end into a binge/purge cycle. If you keep gaining weight when you diet, then something is wrong.

    • Ginjury

      I’m confused. Are you unhappy with the numbers on the scale or how you look with those extra pounds?

      • tesyaa

        When I say my clothes fit, I mean almost all my clothes fit. Some tailored things that fit 5 years ago no longer fit the way they should. The fact is, I rarely wear tailored clothes, but it bothers me that I have outgrown them.

    • BB

      Keeping a list of the calories every day helps for me. I’ll look at it at 5PM before I leave work and realize that I’ve already eaten 1300 cal and no, that 200 cal snack is not a good idea before dinner.

    • Anon for This

      Best thing I did- get an elliptical for my house. Now when I want to watch some tv, read a magazine, etc. I go down to the basement and do it while I’m on the machine- doesn’t matter how slowly I’m going. I feel like I’m doing more than just sitting, and because I’m not worrying about speed or anything, I’ll happily do it for an hour a day. I almost look forward to it because I try not to watch TV without being on it. Multitasking for the win.

    • Anonymous

      I’ve been trying to lose a few pounds and I’ve found that increasing protein and eliminating processed carbs have helped reduce my snacking impulses.

      • Interrobanged

        This is definitely the easiest way to do it. I would also suggest increasing fat intake, which is a known satiety trigger. This may sound gross (and maybe it is), but I have had good success with just plain eating a teaspoon of coconut butter if I’m feeling like I want to eat but am not actively hungry. And, FWIW, I’ve lost about 85lbs and kept it off for five years.

    • Anonymous

      Can you exercise instead of late-night snacking? Just do a 20-30min workout video or take a walk around the neighborhood after dinner with the kids (which is good for them too!). Get in a 30 min exercise session on both saturday/sunday. Can you walk at lunch at work?

      • tesyaa

        I thought of even taking a walk after the kids leave for school and before going to work (my schedule is somewhat flexible), but then I might need to change clothes and that all takes time. I am more of a morning person than a night person, but in the morning I am busy doing household things. Yes, I could walk at lunchtime and that’s a real possibility.

    • Effie

      I would first try not to stress too much about your weight – if your clothes still fit well, then I wouldn’t let the number on the scale bother you much.

      Re: exercise – it sounds like your diet is already healthy, so I wouldn’t worry about cutting it back much or at all. You sound incredibly busy (like…I have approximately 1/8 of your responsibilities and am still exhausted at the end of the week!) so I get why exercise takes a back burner, but have you thought about building exercise into other activities you already do? (Could you walk or bike to work? Could you do pilates while you wait on dinner to finish up? Things like that.)

    • Legally Brunette

      I have seen your posts before and am in total amazement that you have 6 kids!!! WOW. And you’re in Big Law too, right? Amazing.

      Don’t know how tall you are but if you’re looking to just lose 5 pounds after having 6 kids then you are definitely a superstar. Re: tips – I find that eating Fage greek yogurt is a great way to stay full (and curbs me from eating candy and other crap). I also like eating pistachios (keep it to 15 or so) for a snack. You can also try just logging everything you eat through My Fitness Pal – sometimes seeing it in print can prevent you from eating junk.

      • tesyaa

        NO, not Big Law!! I have a professional 9-5 job and sometimes work extra hours from home on nights and weekends, but not crazy hours. I could not work 60+ hours per week with my family obligations.

    • Anonymous

      All the specific numbers related to weight and calories can be triggering for some readers. Just a heads up.

      • Anon

        Can I ask a sincere question? What is the appropriate way to acknowledge this potential issue without going overboard?

        I wasn’t one of the posters above, but obviously, I would never go onto an ED recovery board and start dropping numbers (pounds, macros, workout durations, etc). But when do you know that you need to give people a heads up? Because “all the time” doesn’t seem correct, but “never” doesn’t either.

        Where is the middle ground?

        • Seattle Freeze

          Thanks, Anonymous for flagging that. Just to use today’s post as an example, one could pose the question teysaa did without giving her (very) specific weights and weight ranges, using qualitative terms rather than specific numbers. For someone with trigger issues, much easier to skim past a post when numbers aren’t jumping out at you.

          • tesyaa

            Sorry. I actually have a relative with an eating disorder (in a stable place), but it’s her own numbers she’s focused on. She doesn’t have a problem with me discussing my weight, and I have asked. I do apologize for being less than sensitive.

          • tesyaa

            Thinking it over, IRL I would not mention such specific numbers to someone with an eating disorder, including my relative, so again, I apologize.

          • e.a. wakefield

            i think the numbers are a little triggering, but i think it’s an honest mistake, and i really appreciate the kind way that anonymous & seattle pointed it out, and the equally kind way that tesyaa responded. sometimes the sniping can get a little much around here and it’s nice to see the opposite :)

    • NOLA

      This is such a personal thing. Several of my colleagues were dieting using a calorie counter app and scanning UPC codes. Too me, that is too much. I don’t want to eat only things I can scan and I don’t want to count calories. I wasn’t overreating, but I just wasn’t eating well enough. Too much snacky stuff and too many sweets. If I eat as many vegetables as possible (and fruit as well) and less of carbs, etc., I will lose weight. As AIMS said, make pasta but put more vegetables in it than pasta. I don’t eat white food – bread, rice, pasta, potatoes. Haven’t in awhile. But that’s just me. Since I started eating better, I’ve lost 15 lbs without starving myself. If I want to snack at night, I have a conversation with myself. Do I just want it or am I really hungry? If I just want it, I talk myself out of it. If I’m hungry, I’ll eat something good for me.

  14. Mail etiquette?

    Ok. So most of my friends live alone/with a partner or spouse. But a few still live with roommates. When mailing out things like holiday cards or baby announcements to two friends that are also roommates, do I send one card/announcement addressed to both roommates? Or separates? For things like invitations I always do separately, but it feels weird to be sending multiples of things that go on a fridge or a mantle to the same place. Then again, they’re not a couple- just roomies.

    Thoughts??

    FWIW they are male and late 20s/early 30s.

    • tesyaa

      When I sent things to my cousin’s children, adults living at home, I sent each their own. It does feel silly, but it acknowledges that they are adults.

    • Senior Attorney

      I think my instinct would be the same as yours — separate invitations, joint holiday cards. Baby announcements I could go either way. (Not that helpful, I know!)

    • ER

      For this I really like “The Friend A and Friend B Household/Family” (sort of in a tongue in cheek way)

  15. hellskitchen

    I have a completely opposite shopping problem than the poster above. About a year and a half ago I did a big closet purge and felt really good. Then I got pregnant and put myself on a shopping ban except for a couple of maternity outfits. I am not back to my pre-pregnancy weight yet so I have had to retire a big portion of my work wardrobe to storage. I moved a month ago and ended up doing another closet purge, which also felt good. End result? I have very few good work clothes that fit the larger, post-partum me and I can’t seem to bring myself to shop. My husband encouraged me to go to Nordie’s and spend a thousand bucks with a personal shopper but I am dreading that thought of spending so much money all at once. Perhaps I have become addicted to the high you get from denial and purging. Or perhaps buying clothes in a bigger size would put a damper on my weight-loss plans. Who knows.

    How do I get out of this bind? I realize that I do need good clothes but I am worried about inadvertently filling my closet with cheap, shoddy stuff again. Is there a good way to ease back into shopping again, especially for good quality stuff?

    • Killer Kitten Heels

      What about buying yourself a good “capsule” wardrobe? If you Google “capsule wardrobe for work” or some similar variation, it’ll pull up a bunch of blogs that show you how to make a complete work wardrobe out of about 10-12 pieces of clothing. Maybe that will feel like a more focused and less overwhelming assignment? If I was able to just toss out everything I own and start from scratch, this is what I’d do.

      (Actually, I’d do four “capsules” – (1) winter work, (2) winter casual, (3) summer work, and (4) summer casual, and then create my fall and spring wardrobes with strategic mixing, but it’s going to take me at least a year to save up the cash needed to go nuclear on my closet.)

    • Anonymous

      Congratulations on being vertical with all these amazing changes in your life.

      I say your husband has it totally right and you should ditch the guilt and go for it. If you explain your concerns to a personal shopper you should easily be able to avoid them, and honestly the amount he suggests is entirely appropriate for clothing inecessary to do your job. KKH’s approach is above is probably a good way to start.

      To be cheesy and quote Stacy and Clinton – you’ll be happier if you dress the body you have now. There are wonderful people called tailors who can salvage your new purchases if you end up losing more baby weight, lol.

      Enjoy your new self, your new baby and your return to work all looking fabulous in new clothing that fits well right now. Kudos to your sweet husband. Just go for it!

      • hellskitchen

        Thank you for those sweet words of encouragement. You are so right that I need to get over my mental hangups and dress the body I have right now and get stuff tailored later. Capsule dressing sounds perfect because I do have a tendency to collect random pieces in bright colors that then don’t go with anything else in my wardrobe. I’ll do a shopping trip this weekend to Nordies and see if I can some self confidence back.

  16. Killer Kitten Heels

    Question (inspired by yesterday afternoon’s makeup thread, and especially that video of the makeup tutorial that someone linked to): What is our responsibility, as women, to do things that make us personally uncomfortable in order to help facilitate some sort of larger societal shift?

    For example, if every woman in the world collectively agreed to stop wearing makeup tomorrow, and to never wear makeup again (including models in ads, actresses in movies/TV, etc.), it’d probably only take about a generation or two to completely reset that cultural standard, but in the meantime, those of us raised (like me) to believe that skin imperfections=ugly would feel pretty personally uncomfortable (I’m so freaked out by my acne scars I wear at least a layer of tinted moisturizer on my face even to hot yoga, which, I know, *wacko*).

    Basically, every time I put on makeup (or high heels, or shave my legs, or ::insert other unnecessary grooming standard not imposed on men here::), I feel like I’m privileging my desire for immediate personal comfort (because hey, it’s easy to be comfortable when you conform) over my responsibility to feminism/the sisterhood/my future daughters/however you want to phrase it, and that feels wrong. On the other hand, makeup/shaving/high heels make me feel pretty, and I like feeling pretty and really, strongly dislike feeling ugly/unattractive.

    So my question for the Hive is, how do you reconcile these feelings, if you have them? Or how did you get over them and embrace whatever you do (whether it’s “conform” or “not conform” or some variation thereof) without feeling conflicted? Or am I waaaay overthinking this whole issue?

    • anon-oh-no

      this is an interesting issue that i hear reference to (on this site and others) frequently. I get the idea that it may be society that tells me (subconsciusly) that make-up, high heels etc are what make me pretty, and certianly its nice if other people (my husband, for example) find me attractive.

      But the bottom line for me is that i only wear this stuff becuase i want to. and if i didnt want to, i wouldnt. all of the things you mentioned like shaving legs, wearing make up and particularly high heels, make me feel like i look better and that is something i want. I wear very high heels very often becasue i like them. But i will say that as i have found flats and slacks/jeans that work well with flats, I wear them much more often than i used to.

      • anon-oh-no

        I should add that the question of feeling conflicted or wanting to conform just isnt an issue for me, for the reasons outlined above.

        • The Patriarchy

          You just go on thinking that, honeybunch. It’s fantastic that you boast about how “what you want” emerges, ex nihilo, with no societal influence. I love that you don’t even consider that you might be influenced by ME!

    • Anon for This

      I don’t think there’s any. It’s absolutely true that there is privilege for people who are attractive. I had a pretty startling realization when a friend had an accident that left them with some physical issues. I take *so* many things for granted, that come relatively easily because of my appearance. My appearance matters to me a lot more than I realized. But there are always going to be people who are naturally more attractive than others. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with realizing 1) there is privilege that comes from being attractive (natural or not) and 2) if you don’t naturally have it, whether you put effort into obtaining or decide to abstain is a personal choice. I think pretending that ridding the world of beauty treatments will get rid of the privilege associated with attractiveness is silly.

      I really only use make-up for things that actually have an impact on perception of me in the workplace. I have really really dark eye circles that make me look exhausted even when I’ve gotten 9 hours of sleep. I don’t want to give the impression that I’m exhausted and can’t handle the work I have, when I’m actually doing just fine and would actually like more challenging work. But that’s because I’m pretty happy with how everything else looks. I think to say the person who has skin issues that cause self consciousness is somehow caving to societal pressure by concealing with cosmetics is unfair. Cosmetics can level the playing field- if you choose to use them. If you don’t, more power to you!

      • Orangerie

        Cosigned. This is exactly what I wanted to say, but written much more eloquently than I would have.

      • Wondering

        I wear makeup, heels and pretty clothes because I enjoy doing so and it makes me feel great about myself. I’m 100% more confident when I’m having a great hair day and look really put together. I also won’t deny that I enjoy the appreciative stares of men and the compliments I get when I look good. My husband thinks I look best without makeup (he’s sweet) so I certainly don’t dress up for him. I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t feel conflicted about this at all – if I don’t want to shave my legs one day I don’t, and if I want to dress up I do. The end.

      • Lyssa

        I agree with this as well. Put another way, perhaps (and I know that there’s a bias towards what’s normal to me), the idea that I can’t or shouldn’t wear pretty things sounds far more oppressive than the current standard that I can if I choose, even if I usually fall pretty strongly in the choose to do it camp (like the OP, I have skin problems and feel very awkward if I don’t wear at least a little bit of coverage).

    • Effie

      I think this is a really awesome question and one that I think about a lot myself. I don’t think I was conditioned to conform to be pretty to quite the extent you were (I wear very little or no makeup and am not a huge heel person) but I definitely know that I’m more comfortable in the world when I’ve taken steps to look “pretty.”

      I think our responsibility towards feminism and other women is twofold:

      First, to support, respect, and defend other women’s choices regarding their appearance – whether that means dyed hair, loads of makeup, and heels every day or dressing for comfort, wearing no makeup, and not shaving (I think most women represent some combination of the two extremes I’ve presented) – and actions.

      Second, to carefully consider (as I think you’re doing here) why we do certain things (why we conform to social expectations of femininity, etc.) and make reasoned, rational choices regarding our own appearance and actions. I would never expect every woman to suddenly throw out her mascara and nail polish, but I do expect every woman to be aware of why she does or does not like those things. Whatever you choose to do, do it with intellectual integrity.

      • emeralds

        +1, especially to supporting, respecting, and defending other women’s choices.

    • prof on a bike

      I think about these issues *a lot* — the expectations around personal grooming for professional women are insane, and yet there some things that fit into this category that I enjoy doing (getting a haircut) and others that I do because of straight up social pressure (shaving my legs). I’m always struggling to try to find a middle ground between trying to push for social change and taking the more comfortable conformist road.

      Some things that I think are really helpful for women to do in the workplace are to push back against comments on women’s appearance in general (eg, if someone comments on what a female speaker is wearing I’ll try to redirect to the conversation to what she said or make a comment about a male speaker’s suit to make it more evident that there’s a double standard here), and to reinforce the idea that grooming that goes above and beyond basic personal hygiene should be optional (eg, pushing back against comments that such-and-such hairstyle is not that professional, or when people make comments that I look “tired” without makeup, I’ll respond with something like, “No, that’s just how my face looks”).

    • Senior Attorney

      Oh my gosh. I have overthunk this issue my whole life.

      I spent most of my life overweight and not conventionally attractive. Part of the reason I resisted losing the weight, even when I developed high blood pressure, was my feeling that if I lost the weight, the patriarchy/terrorists/voices in my head would win. And that just pissed me off. But being dismissed for my appearance pissed me off even more.

      I ultimately had weight loss surgery, colored my hair, got myself a new wardrobe, and in my mid 50s suddenly find myself possessed of more beauty privilege than I’ve ever had. It’s a trip. I love it, I’m pissed as hell about it, I absolutely do not expect any other woman to conform to beauty pressure, I hate that the whole “beauty industrial complex” is so burdensome, and… yes, I’m conflicted. So you’re not alone.

    • Sparrow

      Interesting question…I like makeup. I like the process of applying it in the morning and it helps me feel pulled together and confident. When I look good, I feel good. Same thing with shaving my legs and wearing heels. I do those things b/c I want to, not b/c of any pressure from society to conform.

    • Killer Kitten Heels

      I guess I should be clearer – I’m not worried so much that I’m doing my makeup because of outside pressure to conform (although yes, somewhat, I am), I’m worried that all of these individual choices by individual women who do their makeup “just because [they] want to” are creating/perpetuating the societal pressures that cause other women to feel like they *have to* wear makeup (or straighten their hair, or dye away the gray, or wear heels, or lose weight, or wear a push-up bra, or whatever) whether they want to or not.

      If everyone’s making choices in a vacuum, then yes, to each her own, but I guess where I start to get concerned about my own choices is when I think about the fact that I’m *not* making choices in a vacuum – my choice to present myself in traditionally “feminine” ways is, whether I like it or not, likely reinforcing my colleagues’/peers’/supervisors’/random strangers’ notions of what women are “supposed to” look like at work, at the farmer’s market, at yoga, whatever. So I guess what I struggle with is the fact that my individual choice – which I’m comfortable with and happy with on a purely personal level – is arguably having a negative impact on society at large by reinforcing stereotypes that harm a subset of women who don’t want to do these things but feel like they’re “required.” And it creates leverage for some men – “all of the other lady associates wear makeup/wear heels/aren’t overweight/wear push-up bras/whatever, and it’s no big deal, so why does Wanda have to be so weird about it/refuse to do it?”

      In a world where so many women struggle daily to *not* be judged by their looks (and are, at times, penalized in their careers for being nonconforming or not conventionally attractive), is any choice about how we present ourselves really purely personal? And if it’s not, what weight do we/should we give to the societal implications of our choices vs. our own personal preferences?

      • emeralds

        I don’t have the answer, but thinking about these things is really important, IMO. No decisions are made in a vacuum, and I think “So I guess what I struggle with is the fact that my individual choice – which I’m comfortable with and happy with on a purely personal level – is arguably having a negative impact on society at large by reinforcing stereotypes that harm a subset of women who don’t want to do these things but feel like they’re “required.” And it creates leverage for some men – “all of the other lady associates wear makeup/wear heels/aren’t overweight/wear push-up bras/whatever, and it’s no big deal, so why does Wanda have to be so weird about it/refuse to do it?”” really gets to the heart of it.

        Honestly, I have no idea where I fall on this spectrum. I’m *aware* of it, and actively check myself from making those judgments about other women, which I feel like I do my share of both on [this website] and in real life. But at the same time…you will pry the privilege I get for being a conventionally attractive woman, who wears makeup and feminine clothing, out of my cold, dead hands. I feel awful about it but there it is.

      • Senior Attorney

        I understood your question even though I don’t think I answered it.

        And at the end of the day, sadly, I guess my answer is “I put in my time for 30+ years and now I’m gonna let somebody else take over while I enjoy a tiny bit of attractiveness privilege before becoming completely invisible as I age.”

      • Monday

        I agree. “I just do it because it makes me feel good!” is my immediate thought as well, but it just doesn’t do justice to the context of overwhelming pressure/expectation/reward. The “choice” will only be purely choice when it’s between equivalent alternatives.

        I don’t believe you’re overthinking this, KKH. Look at all the time, money and effort spent in the beauty industry! Anyone who thinks this is trivial stuff is kidding themselves.

        As to deflecting and defending when people criticize other women, I definitely want to add fat talk to the list. I think people assume because I’m relatively small that I enjoy bashing women’s weight or am always up for discussing who looks right and who doesn’t, but I try to be pretty firm about shutting it down.

        • Anon

          It bothers me when women say “I just do it for myself!” I understand the confidence boost that comes with looking good, but why are we conditioned to only feel confident when we look good, and why does looking good almost always entail wearing make-up and expensive clothes that are in fashion, paying for expensive hairstyles, using products with harmful chemicals on a daily basis, and wearing shoes that are horrible for your feet? You don’t do all those specific activites because you have an inherent desire to – no one comes out of the womb looking for the perfect Brazilian blow-out. Even if real change may be a long way away, I think women do a disservice to the debate by claiming that their own individual preference is the only reason they engage in widespread, common beautifying activities.

          For what it’s worth, I don’t wear make-up except on special occasions, I’ve stopped wearing heels to work, I have one narrow dresser and half a small closet worth of clothes, and I spend $20 on haircuts every 2-3 months. I still shave my legs and armpits and feel somewhat guilty for doing so. If I ever grow hair on my face, I’m sure I’ll immediately feel intense societal pressure to remove it and I will.

        • Anon

          Completely with you on this. We don’t do things in a vacuum, and I think people are delusional when they say that it’s just an individual choice. Well, guess what? Individuals that all the X become a critical mass that does X, when that critical mass grows X becomes the norm, and becomes enforced implicitly, with people who don’t follow that norm being treated less well. That’s a problem.

      • prof on a bike

        I so agree, and I feel like if more people had this kind of sociological perspective it would go a long way towards helping the problem! The only thing I’m somewhat wary of is that I sometimes feel as though in trying to be conscious of these problems, I end up creating yet another obligation on myself to dress not just for me, but for all of womankind. Realistically, pretty much every daily decision we make (what to eat, how to dress, what form of transport to use, etc) carries political weight, but it’s completely unrealistic to think that we can optimize every one of those decisions all the time.

      • Effie

        “I’m not worried so much that I’m doing my makeup because of outside pressure to conform (although yes, somewhat, I am), I’m worried that all of these individual choices by individual women who do their makeup “just because [they] want to” are creating/perpetuating the societal pressures that cause other women to feel like they *have to* wear makeup (or straighten their hair, or dye away the gray, or wear heels, or lose weight, or wear a push-up bra, or whatever) whether they want to or not.”

        I don’t think these things can be separated to quite the extent you want them to be. Women wear makeup and engage in other “feminine” or “beautifying” behavior because we have been conditioned to do so by society. No one, not you, not me, not anyone, makes decisions about things like this without social pressure. Ergo, this group of hypothetical women who do their makeup “just because they want to” does not really exist. We are ALL part of the social pressure phenomenon — we are influenced by it, and in turn each of our actions influences it as a whole.

        • Godzilla

          Totally agree.

          And just to answer yesterday’s question, I had a really hard time finding green foundation to smooth out my scaly skin but I did. And now I hardly ever wear it. I don’t think I look frumpy or unprofessional at all.

        • Senior Attorney

          Yep. “Just because I want to” is chock full of all kinds of more subtle motivators.

      • ohc

        I think Anon for This at 11:27 is right, though: whether or not we adhere to the societal dicta of makeup, shaved legs, high heels, and so on, there’s still going to be beauty privilege–that’s just hard-wired.

        To push your thought experiment in the other direction, should the naturally conventionally pretty among us be doing more for their plainer sisters by dulling themselves down with unflattering clothes, dirty hair, and unbrushed teeth? I agree with your notion that prettification essentially wrecks the curve, but I don’t know if there’s a realistic way to achieve parity.

    • Baconpancakes

      I don’t have time to write the novel on this I’d like to, but I’m interested to read others’ responses.

        • Killer Kitten Heels

          Me three on that “all of the thoughts and none of the answers” thing.

          Being a grown-up is hard.

    • Bonnie

      I don’t feel pressured to wear makeup or shave my legs and think that there is nothing wrong with wanting to look nice. People have been acting this way for centuries; even Cleopatra wore makeup. I won’t hold it against anyone who choses not to wear makeup but will be judgemental if they stop using deodorant, which society does pressure us into using.

  17. RED

    Has anyone started or is considering getting a whole life insurance plan? What were your motivations, and are you satisfied with your investment decision? I am pondering starting one for myself and realize that this is a long-term and significant commitment.

    I am doing online research, and there seems to some information overload. If you have found certain online resources to be helpful, please let me know!

    • tesyaa

      I work in life insurance. Although my company sells a lot of whole life (or permanent universal life), I am not sure why people buy it. It’s a vehicle that can be used for tax savings for very wealthy people, but for “normal” people, I am in favor of separating insurance and investments. Generally that means term insurance, which can be bought in increments of 10-30 years. There are also special circumstances in which whole/permanent life insurance is useful, such as in a trust for a child with special needs.

      • RED

        Interesting…. I appreciate your insider perspective. What do you mean by “very wealthy” people (e.g., households with a multi-million annual income)?

        • tesyaa

          We often target “mass affluent” which is defined by wikipedia, cut and pasted below. The truly affluent often have tens of millions to invest each year, and might purchase specialized, custom tailored whole life products.

          Difference between upper middle income and mass affluent

          There may be a high correlation between the households in the upper-middle reaches of the income strata and the mass affluent, but there are differences. Social class is the result of a person’s function within society rather than merely the income of the household in which he or she resides. Both terms refer to people whose wealth or income is above the average, yet below the top. As opposed to households with above average incomes the mass affluent are also defined through liquid assets such as stocks, bonds, cash, and mutual funds are counted. Fixed assets such as real estate are not commonly counted. This is because liquid assets provide more financial flexibility, which is a desirable trait in customers.

          The mass affluent have been characterized as those who save more than they spend and invest for their future. While they worry about funding their children’s college education, they realize other savings and loan options exist and they are not opposed to their children paying some part of their educational costs. The mass affluent generally may worry about replacing their paycheck in retirement, and may need to be encouraged to spend more money during their retirement years. They often wish to leave an inheritance to their children. The mass affluent will have between $500,000 and $1.5 million (USD) in investable assets upon retirement with a net worth between $500,000 and $2.5 million (USD). They spend between $4,000 and $10,000 (USD) per month in retirement.[2]

      • Sydney Bristow

        I’m not in finance or insurance but this is what I hear from the financial experts I listen to, particularly the ones who take phone calls on air (Clark Howard, Suze Orman, and Dave Ramsey). They often get calls from people stuck with whole life policies that they can’t afford to pay the premiums on anymore but the cash value of the policy at that point is minuscule. These people tend to be out tens of thousands of dollars and realize it was a total waste of money. The advice is virtually always that term life is a much better option, except from the people who make big commissions selling whole life.

      • Anon in trouble?

        I already have a whole life policy that I’ve had for 3 years as an investment vehicle. If it matters, I’m 29, a lawyer, and engaged; no kids yet but hopefully someday. While my premium outlay ($2400/year) hasn’t hit the cash value yet, it is projected to do so soon and continue rising.

        Now I’m worried I’ve made some sort of lifelong mistake! As long as I don’t purchase any additional whole life insurance, is this something reasonable to maintain or should I get out? I wouldn’t even know how to get out at this point, especially without losing money. I have been advised (admittedly by the person make the [tiny] commission) that this is just one piece of an overall investment strategy meant to diversify as I get older and increase my income. I also have a Roth IRA, emergency savings, and as soon as I stop clerking and start my firm job, I will heavily, heavily finance a 401k.

        Thoughts?

        • tesyaa

          First of all, there are different kinds of whole life. Some stress life coverage, have stronger insurance guarantees, and are less intensely investment vehicles. You may have one of these, which is perfectly good as lifelong insurance coverage, as long as you pay the minimum premiums. Of course, there is a cash value, which term insurance doesn’t have.

          It’s not a lifelong mistake if your premiums are affordable. I agree that this is a small piece of your investment strategy, and while I don’t know the policy details, I don’t think you should worry. The point I originally tried to make was that the need for insurance coverage is separate from the need to invest. For some (few) people it makes sense to combine the two. For most of us, it’s not necessary.

      • Divaliscious11

        This. Unless you are very wealthy, a separate term policy, and regularly funded investment account at a no-load mutual fund is almost also better.
        That is essentially what the insurance company is going to do, except they will skim off the top….. Why pay them to do what you can do for yourself…?

  18. ANP

    Hi gang — speaking of Lands End dresses, I bought a short sleeved wrap dress in-store a few weeks ago in both small and medium. The medium is too big and I have to drive fairly far to get to a Lands End or Sears to return it. If you want the dress (tags are still on), it’s yours for $20 shipped (paid via PayPal). I’ll post the link next to avoid moderation, but you can also search for Lands End Womens Short Sleeve Cotton Modal Wrap Dress. Color is Palm Pink. For the record, I wear the small ALL the time to work and love it — great quality, generous wrap and a flattering cut. I’m a nursing mama so I wear a tank underneath to raise the neckline.

  20. Two Cents

    I guess I’ll be the voice of dissent here on LE. I bought the faux wrap dress that everyone recommended here a while ago, and while it is pretty, the fabric is a bit too casual for me to feel comfortable wearing to work (BigLaw). I might wear it on a casual Friday or the weekend but that’s about it. Still a nice dress, just not nice enough to wear to my office.

    • Anon

      I like it, but it seems too Woman of a Certain Age to me. I’d feel frumpy in it.

        • Anon

          Agree on the frumpy – the cut, the placement of seams, the shapes are all kind old-fashioned in a bad way.

  21. Not a LE lover

    I guess I’ll be the voice of dissent here on LE. I bought the faux wrap dress that everyone recommended here a while ago, and while it is pretty, the fabric is a bit too casual for me to feel comfortable wearing to work (BigLaw). I might wear it on a casual Friday or the weekend but that’s about it. Still a nice dress, just not nice enough to wear to my office.

    • Pink

      You are not alone. I spoke out against them last week or so. They look so nice in pictures, but the quality (once received) for me is relegated to bumming around the house.

      • dancinglonghorn

        For me, the trick is to never put them in the dryer. I find that the fabric fades pretty quick so I machine wash (cold, delicate) and hang dry. This makes them hold up really well! No fading or pilling! (I virtually do this with all my “nice” clothes – only PJs, Ts, and undies go in the dryer for me! – must be my European side!)

  22. Romey

    Any recommendations for a “professional” camera? In other words not a basic point and shoot for a few hundred bucks. My husband and I want to get something nicer to start using when we travel. $1000 or under.

    • tesyaa

      My brother is a very serious amateur photog and does an occasional wedding for pay, so he really knows cameras. I asked him the same thing you asked, and he recommended the Canon EOS M. It works like a DSLR, but it’s mirrorless so very compact. Probably about $500-$600 including a lens. I would have bought this for myself, but ended up getting a DSLR hand-me-down from my brother which is not compact, but free.

      • Romey

        tesyaa, thank you! that’s so funny that your brother recommended it b/c i was JUST looking at that one on the canon website. Appreciate it!

    • A Nonny Moose

      I have a Canon t3i rebel and love it. From what I’ve read, general consensus if you plan on getting into photography is to splurge on the lens, not the camera. WHat do you plan on taking pictures of? When I bought mine, I went for a lens with a wide range of capabilities (35-220). It was a lot more expensive than buying two lens to cover that zoom range separately, but only carrying around one lens is amazing.

      • Romey

        Ok, I need to buckle down and do some research b/c I didn’t realize you buy a lens separate from a camera! We’ll mostly be taking pictures of ourselves on trips and scenery. I’m just tired of taking pictures with my little iphone on our travels. We’re going to go to Europe next year and I want to be able to properly document our trip with some high quality pictures. And then we’ll probably start having kids in the next year or so, so it would be nice to have a quality camera for family stuff too.

        • A Nonny Moose

          Most cameras come with a “kit” lens. What I’d do is buy a camera “body only” and then buy a separate lens which will cover more zoom range than the kit lens. The camera I bought comes either body only ($475), with an 18-55 lens ($549 total), or with an 18-135 lens ($759 total). I went body only and then added an 18-200 lens for an extra $650 (so just over 1k total). I suppose zoom is like diamonds… they get exponentially more expensive as size increases :) I am absolutely in love with my lens, because it lets me take pictures of pretty much anything I want. I won’t outgrow it unless I got *really* into photography. Especially for travel, I would think about splurging on the bigger zoom. But yes, second the idea above of trying them out in a store, even the lenses.

    • Flying Squirrel

      I would look at “prosumer” level digital SLR cameras (stick with Canon or Nikon). It’s really important, imho, to go to a store and test them out in person. SLR cameras are bigger and heavier than a point-and-shoot, and you want to get one that you feel comfortable holding…or you won’t use it. And if you stick to the known brands like Canon or Nikon, you will get a good camera and feature set.

    • Mary Ann Singleton

      I have a Nikon D5100 and it’s amazing. It takes great photos using the automatic setting, and I can’t wait to learn how to use more of its features. It’s very beginner friendly but with lots of capacity for more.

    • darjeeling

      I have a Sony DSC-RX100 and it is amazing. It’s a “point and shoot”, small camera but the photos it can take are ridiculous – the kids are splashing in water at the playground and you can see every droplet in the air etc. Aside from the iphone I’ve never been so happy with a consumer product, ever. $650 or $700

  23. Teenage Shopping Advice

    Hive, I need help! My sister in law is turning 16. Sweet girl, big birthday, no clue what to get her. I’m torn because I remember being at that age and getting sentimental stuff (for ex. a ring that I never wear anymore) and also just wanting all the popular stuff. Suggestions? I want to get her something she will like more than look back on, though if could be both that’d be great too. Price range $200.

    • Romey

      Could you ask her for some ideas? My sister is 16 and I always tell her to just give me a list of stuff she wants.

      • Teenage Shopping Advice

        I did and she’s in the phase of pushing off attention (also bugs me, but that’s a whole sep. post). I was thinking all else fails, give her a wrapped calendar and telling her to pick a day and spend the day shopping together up to XX amount. Though I’m not sure if she’d have more fun with me or her friends!

        • Anon

          I have a teenage daughter and her 22-year old aunt (dad’s little sister) often does a shopping trip as a present for her and she loves it! They will usually do lunch, a movie and frozen yogurt also and make a day out of it. One year, instead of the shopping trip they went to a nice salon and got hair cuts/styled fancy. I know my daughter likes the material aspect of it, but she also really enjoys that time with her aunt.

          • Katie

            As an aunt, I like this too! It means conversation time with her in her element.

          • NOLA

            Yeah, that may be the answer. When my older nephew turned 16, I gave him a dozen nice golfballs and a Dick’s Sporting Goods giftcard. The younger one turns 16 next week and he had no idea what to tell me. He said his brother would get him a game, he wanted a new phone from his dad (my brother) and his mom would get him the new case. So cash from me. He’s a goofy kid so I wouldn’t have a clue.

          • NOLA

            okay in moderation, but:

            Yeah, that may be the answer. When my older nephew turned 16, I gave him a dozen nice golfballs and a D!ck’s Sporting Goods giftcard. The younger one turns 16 next week and he had no idea what to tell me. He said his brother would get him a game, he wanted a new phone from his dad (my brother) and his mom would get him the new case. So cash from me. He’s a goofy kid so I wouldn’t have a clue.

    • hoola hoopa

      I’d also ask her or her mother for suggestions. I remember that age and people wanted such different things: designer bag, sewing machine, diamond earrings, down comforter, horse-riding lessons or flight lessons, ski/snowboarding gear or season pass.

      • L

        I asked both and her sister! I don’t know what it is this year, but every other year we’ve gotten a list! I also have no idea what is still “cool” but we’ve done Uggs, Northface, etc already. ACK

        • Hollis

          I gave up on buying for cousins this age – I just get them a gift certificate from amazon.com. But i’m personally a big fan of experience gifts – concert, or musical, or sports tickets.

    • Silvercurls

      There’s always a risk that “forever” accessories won’t endure because people change their taste, aspirations, and other circumstances.

      What about something she’ll like now and something that she can grow into later, such as a cookbook, cooking lessons (especially if her family tradition includes foods that aren’t cooked regularly) Haggadah*, menorah, candlesticks, or other religious items for her adult life and home…or a selection of books by and about women who have worked hard to define themselves and their place in the world? Off the top of my head, this might include: works by Sheryl Sandberg and other contemporary commenters on women and life choices; classics such as Simone de Beauvoir’s The Second Sex (you don’t have to agree with her 100% but it’s worthwhile to read her) or Virginia Woolf’s A Room of One’s Own; and lesser-known gems such as the autobiographies of Jil Ker Conway or Hettie Jones. I can research and post the titles later. Other options might be creative work (art / music / poetry / short stories / full-length fiction or essays) or biographies of strong women such as Stanley Anne Obama, Rita Levi-Montalcini (Italian-born scientist), Marie Curie, Sonia Sotomayor, Sandra Day O’Connor, Anne Richards…

      My biases skew liberal, my own religion is Jewish, but you could certainly adapt these references to your own viewpoint. Kathleen Norris and Karen Armstrong have both written interesting memoirs about life in Christian communities. There are many strong-minded Conservative women around…maybe a biography of Margaret Thatcher or Elizabeth Dole, or something by Megan McCain? Anyway, have fun! Your SIL is lucky to have you in her life.

      * Haggadah = the booklet that guides the at-home celebration of Passover. (There are OODLES of these ranging from super-traditional, with or without annotations, to super-specialized such as feminist, kid-friendly, labor-oriented, etc.)

      • Romey

        I know that not all teenagers are alike….but I cannot imagine any 16 year old girl interested in some of those things! Not trying to be rude at all. I have a 16 year old sister and it’s just funny to think of her wanting a cookbook or any book for that matter!

        • KLG

          At 16, I would have loved a gift certificate to Borders or Barnes and Nobles. Not for cookbooks but I might have read some of the biographies she suggested, as well as short stories or essays. My stepdaughter is in 8th grade (and is not interested in school) and wants clothes and a laptop for Christmas but my sister will end up buying her fiction books and my stepdaughter will be very excited about them because she likes to read and hates when she finishes a book and has to wait to go to the library at school to get a new one. Believe it or not, those kids exist!

          • Aerith

            Yes, going to the library or bookstore was super exciting to me as a kid, even at age 16. My heart would actually beat faster once I got there.

      • Katie

        This blog is so cool. I love that I go to a fashion blog for professional careers and end up getting book recommendations for Kathleen Norris (who is one of my favorites) from a Jew. What a great mix of thoughtful, interesting women here.

    • Divaliscious11

      I seem to recall getting this at 16, like most of the girls at my school… Its gone up a little in price but…

      http://www.tiffany.com/Shopping/Item.aspx?fromGrid=1&sku=GRP01429&mcat=148204&cid=287458&search_params=p+1-n+10000-c+287458-s+5-r+-t+-ni+1-x+-lr+-hr+-ri+-mi+&search=0&origin=browse&searchkeyword=&selectedsku=21149799

      but this might be a nice alternate

      http://www.tiffany.com/Shopping/Item.aspx?fromGrid=1&sku=GRP06394&mcat=148204&cid=287458&search_params=p+1-n+10000-c+287458-s+5-r+-t+-ni+1-x+-lr+-hr+-ri+-mi+&search=0&origin=browse&searchkeyword=

  24. AIMS

    I’m trying to decide how much money to set aside in my health savings (I think that’s what it’s called). I set aside too little this year but I’m afraid I’ll set aside too much for next. What sorts of things can you use it for besides the obvious (copays, meds, etc.)? Thanks in advance.

    • L

      Beyond the obvious you mentioned, I’d add if there’s a deductible you’re likely to need to meet this year (planned surgery, etc) and also anything you need for vision and dental (contacts/glasses/etc). Also, if you’re a generally healthy person you can probably just do your normal routine (eg. yearly copays, routine med copays) but if you tend to get sick or prefer brand name medications, you can start by adding an extra $20/mo to your account. If halfway through the year you haven’t touched it, then stop adding to it.

    • ADL

      Do you have a flex spending account (FSA) where it’s use it or lose it? Or do you have a health savings account (HSA) where you can keep it all and roll over year to year? If it’s HSA, max out as much as possible.

      For FSA eligible items, look online at the IRS and it’ll tell you what you can use it for – publication 502 – will post link after this.

    • Famouscait

      Just looking into this issue myself. One helpful thing I learned is that most FSA plans (if this is indeed what you’re looking at) will allow you to submit 2014 charges in the first quarter of 2015, but some plans also allow you to accrue *new* charges during this time frame as well. So in that case, you’d actually have ~15 months to use the funds. Check if this is the case with your plan.

      In regards to what else you can pay for with the FSA, some websites (like Drugstore.com, I believe) have a check box for searching for allowable items. (What’s allowed is set by the IRS – not the website or plan provider.) Hope this helps.

      • Mpls

        Definitely check your FSA plan for the grace period. Some have it, some don’t. Don’t assume your plan does have it.

        New for 2014 plan years, you can roll over up to $500 from the 2014 plan year to the 2015 plan year, so the “use it or lose it” has lost some of the edge.

        Also – if it is a health care flex spending account, be sure NOT to look at Health Savings Account (HSA) information. Those are two totally different things, although they have same list of qualified expenses.

        • Parfait

          Check if that is true for your company though. The new rules “allow” the account to roll over up to $500 but do not require them to. My HR person said the vendor they use wouldn’t be doing it until 2015.

          I’m maxing mine out for the first time this year. Yay braces as a grownup!

    • Divaliscious11

      That sounds like Flex savings. Not Health savings… They are different….

      • Mpls

        Yes – you can only have the Health Savings Account (HSA) if you have a qualified high deductible health plan. If you have one of those your limit to contribution for 2014 is $3200 this year (I think). If you have an HSA, I believe you can change your contribution amount at any point during the year. And the money rolls over from year to year.

        If you have a Health Care Flex Spending Account (FSA), then you have a limit of $2500 to contribute for the year, and it is use it or lose it money – or at least it was through 2013. You don’t have to have any specific sort of health care insurance to have an FSA, and are in fact limited in what you can use an FSA for if you have a HDHP with an HSA.

        So – be clear on which you have, because it will totally make a difference.

  25. Travel

    A few months ago, my husband and I decided to take a little vacation over the Veterans’ Day holiday weekend. I suggested a city I wanted to visit and was very excited about visiting. Husband agreed to spend the weekend at that city. Since then, he’s said he isn’t really interested in going there and is just going because I wanted to go. Some things about the travel there are a little inconvenient (flights etc.) and those now are just adding to him not being that into going. Plus, his job looks shakier than we’d thought and, if we hadn’t already spent the money on airfare, we wouldn’t be taking a trip like this. We also probably won’t be able to go anywhere else for awhile, and I think he’s annoyed that he agreed to this before knowing that there wouldn’t be the chance to take another trip (to someplace of his choosing) for the foreseeable future.

    I’m annoyed because he never spoke up early on to say that he wasn’t that into this trip. If he’d spoken up, we could have found a place we both were really excited about. I feel like, since he agreed to it before without expressing any unhappiness about it, it’s pretty cr@ppy of him to now say we’re only going because I wanted to go. When we found out about his job, I suggested we not go. Sure, we’d lose the money on airfare (which wasn’t nothing) but we’d save the money on hotel, restaurants, etc. He said no, we’d spent the money, so let’s at least go. I’m just worried he’s going to be in a bad mood this weekend and spoil the trip. Also, this is kind of a recurring problem, although it was much worse earlier in our relationship. I’ve figured out that in his family, people check and re-check and re-check with everyone else that a decision is okay. So his mom will pick a place for us all to go to dinner. We say okay. A few hours later, she’ll email with three more options, just in case we didn’t like the first one. We’ll say that, no, the first one was fine. Just before it’s time to go to the restaurant, she’ll say “well, there’s also [restaurant] across the street if you’d rather go there.” ARGHHH!!! We said the first one was fine! In my family, you speak up the first time and are pretty much held at your word. I guess my husband expects several chances to say “well, I’m really not into that, actually.” He’s gotten much, much better about speaking up early on, but he says on the one hand that he wants to do things I want to do to make me happy, but then fails to give me the full information about why he’s agreeing to something and then (and this is what makes it actually not so thoughtful) often regrets saying yes later on and then puts it on me for suggesting it.

    Hopefully, this trip will be okay and he’ll enjoy himself. But I am so ticked off at the moment.

    • MH

      Blegh, I’d be completely annoyed too. I’m sorry that you have to deal with his poor attitude. At least it sounds like you’ve got a really good handle on the root of the problem, you’ve spoken to him about it before, and he’s starting to get better.

      Hopefully when you get on the plane and get going, he’ll turn his attitude around and rally to enjoy the weekend. Get cocktails at the airport before you leave (even if it’s the morning, why not?) and start celebrating!

    • wildkitten

      Yes. My boyfriend does this same thing of presenting additional options after I’ve already agreed to something. It’s re-litigating a decided issue. It bugs me too.

      Travelling when your job is shaky is very stressful, so I see where he’s coming from, but if you’re going to go you should take the opportunity to enjoy it.

      • Wildkitten

        With my guy, he was making additional suggestions to be extra-nice and I have taken great pains to tell him I don’t find it considerate, and he has taken steps to rein it in, since his intention was to be helpful, and it is not.

    • Kelly

      This would really annoy me too. For the sake of your future sanity & marital harmony, it sounds like it would help if, sometime after he initially says he’s ok with a plan but before you book / reserve anything, you say “When we talked about this, you said yes— is that your final answer? I’m planning to go ahead and make reservations on Specific Date.”

      Good luck this weekend. Maybe you should tell him that as long as he’s willing to keep an open mind (aka is not a pouty jerk), you’re planning to reward him handsomely for being a good sport and give him some fond memories of the city.

      • Travel

        Mostly I’ve learned to do this, and it’s made a real difference. I think I was honestly so excited about this that I didn’t do the later check back. I did say “hey, airfares to [city] look great today — should I go ahead and book?” But ideally I’d have said “are you still up for this? We could go someplace else.” It irks me to do that, but he’s also made an effort over time to speak up from the beginning when he’s not that into something. Oh well. We both backslid a little.

    • Parfait

      My ex was like that, only PLUS he would act like a total grumpypants the whole time we were doing whatever he’d said was ok. Then I’d finally pry out of him that he didn’t want to do it in the first place, then I’d ask exasperatedly “Well why on earth didn’t you say so earlier?” and he’d say “Because I didn’t want to be an a55hole.” OK so you saved yourself 30 seconds of disagreeing with me and gained us both a whole day of you being an a55hole. Good job dude!

      Sorry, this is not helpful. But I sympathize. Hope your guy can at least enjoy himself once you are there.

  26. Seaweed Burger

    I’m disappointed after looking at Land’s End. A lot of their selections are polyester or polyester blends. Even when I spend more to buy these supposedly better quality “ponte” polyester dresses, the fabric always pills on the lower back where I sit down against my chair. I am so fed up with polyester fabrics and I wish companies would not use them. Now I make sure that I don’t pay any more than $30 for a polyester dress because I know I’ll just have to throw it out in a year (or less) after it gets pilly. I love the stuff you pick, Kat, but I get disappointed when I see a store or company charging way too much for crappy synthetic fabric.
    I know that a lot of women like it because they can wash it themselves without going to the dry cleaner, but a lot of the poly ponte dresses I’ve bought have to be dry-cleaned anyway!
    It’s getting harder and harder to find a 100% wool suit that isn’t a poly blend. Even Tahari is using poly now…..

  27. tranny cam

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