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Anonymous
Live in an apartment. They just called. They need to come in and look in my utility closet because there is a leak somewhere in my line of apartments. They wear a mask and gloves but are obviously going apartment to apartment. I feel sick to my stomach. Higher risk. I go out once in 3 wks for groceries and now this. It’s a 1 bed. All I can do is open the door, scurry into my kitchen, they walk thru the living room to the sun room, do their thing, and then all I can so Lysol off what they touch + generally spray Lysol on the carpet not that it assures it’s where they stepped. And then open sunroom windows to circulate the air. Anything else I can do?
I feel ridiculous because I know people in houses having to have repair people in and this is life but it’s so hard to be so scared all the time.
anon8
Can you open the windows before they get there? Also, wear a mask yourself.
LittleBigLaw
Maybe ask them to bring/wear protective covers for their shoes? That’s a common practice for repair workers in our area even pre-COVID.
Anonymous
No one is getting covid from the floor.
LittleBigLaw
Agree the risk is very minimal, but OP specifically mentioned having anxiety about where they walked. It’s an easy thing that might ease her concerns.
LaurenB
At our hospital, the doctors / nurses are being told that it is advisable that when they get home, they should remove their shoes outside and leave them in the garage wherever possible vs bring them in the home, for infection concerns.
anon
But MD’s and RN’s that are taking care of patients are way more likely to be exposed that a maintenance person. Aerosolizing procedures are a big risk to clinicians and a possible way for the shoes to be contaminated. Other people not so much. Precautions taken by people with a high risk of exposure are not needed by everyone.
Anonymous
A water leak is no joke and can make you very sick, so I’m glad they are being pro-active with this.
And what you’ve outlined is basically all you can do. And if they are in and out reasonably quickly, I think you should be fine. Could you walk up and down your hallway or even in a stairwell?
Ellen
You will be fine. Do not worry. Just Lysol and Clorox where they step and touch. They are interested in fixing a leak, not in spreading the virus. Besides, they are less likely to be carrying the virus b/c they are plumbers who are not in contact with as many people as those in the supermarkets.
Anon
Is the leak something they should be able to see evidence of or are they going inside your walls? If they just want to look at an area, maybe you could video chat with them so they can see that it is dry?
Anonymous
No this is silly.
Anne
We had to have our dishwasher repaired. We left while the did it, which may be an option for you. I was very very nervous but we left windows very open, asked them to wear masks, cleared out the area they’d be touching, and cleaned everything when we got back. It was weeks ago and we appear to be fine (knock on wood) so I think if you’re very careful you’ll be fine too.
Anonymous
There is zero need to be this panicked! It is fine.
Airplane.
Agreed. If you are truly “scared all the time” please seek some help for anxiety.
Anon
Yeah I’m sure OP can find a shrink in the next 30 min. Give me a break. High risk people ARE scared.
Airplane.
I mean, actually? Yes. Telehealth, tele PC appts and EAP benefits available virtually have been constantly sending reminders to patients/employees. If a routine maintenance call (even in a pandemic) is causing you to be scared all the time, it would do OP good to get some help. This constant level of anxiety and fear should not be white knuckled.
Anonymous
She has legit risks. You trying to minimize her concern with a call for therapy doesn’t change that. I’m so tired of people acting like someone who is immune suppressed is being overly afraid. The reality is you DO have to think about it all of the time right now given such high stakes from exposure and that it is widespread (literally what pandemic means). Now go away and tell someone with diabetes that repeatedly being concerned about their blood sugar means they need therapy.
OP, if you can’t show a photo of the area they need to inspect, then request they wear masks and gloves. Open your windows, wear a mask and wipe down surfaces where they have been.
Airplane.
I di dnot say she doesn’t have legit risks. I also didn’t say she is overly afraid. I said if she is truly “scared all the time” and writing this post in the panicked bursting sentences as she did she should not be white knuckling it and should get some treatment for anxiety and panic.
Anonymous
When someone says “It is fine.” and you say “Agreed,” you take away from her VALID concern. That is way worse, my friend.
LaurenB
For what it’s worth, we had to have refrigerator repairmen in twice. They wore protective (N-95) masks issued by their employer, fresh gloves (for each stop), put booties over their shoes, and kept their distance from us. I didn’t leave my house, just went in another room and we sort of called out to one another about what needed to be done, and the payment was contactless. (I recognize you won’t have to deal with payment.) They were very cautious, had their own wipes / disinfectant, and then I re-wiped anything that they had touched (which was really very minimal). I feel certain these repairmen are going to be VERY conscious of safety because after all, they’re the ones walking into multiple houses / apartments every day. You may want to see if you can just leave when they are working. If this makes you feel better, they’re way more at risk than you are — just wear your mask, get out of their way, and disinfect surfaces they’ve touched when they are gone. You got this!
anon
I had a plumber over to fix the toilet in my 1-bed/1-bath apartment recently and my experience was exactly the same as Lauren’s. They will take their own precautions and you can do what you’ve described above.
PolyD
I want to second this – they are probably more at risk and will take precautions. I had to have my dishwasher fixed a couple of weeks ago, I opened the door to my kitchen, shouted to the guy that the door was open, then stayed in the living room while he did his thing. He was wearing a mask, not sure about gloves. I didn’t wear a mask, but as I said, was in the other room. He yelled to me when he was done and then I went and locked the kitchen door.
After he left I sprayed down the sink and counters and dishwasher, but that’s about it. It was totally fine.
Pure Imagination
Hey, I get why you’re concerned. I’m high risk too and it’s scary to think about opening up your home, even for something important. That being said, your risk is going to be really low if everyone wears masks and gloves. You can open a window and close the doors to other rooms and it will truly be close to negligible. If it helps, I wouldn’t hesitate to let them in with those precautions.
LaurenB
Keep in mind these guys don’t want to be touching surfaces any more than you do. They’re going to touch as little as they can in order to make their diagnosis.
Flats Only
Given your higher risk can they check the apartments above and below you first, to see if they can isolate the leak to your level? That way if it’s not you they won’t come in. Keep in mind too, if it helps, that the maintenance folks are just as squicked out and anxious about having to go into people’s apartments as you are about them coming in. They will be gloved/masked up, perhaps with clean, new shoe covers too, and will be in and out as quickly as they possibly can. They are not going to linger in your living room coughing and sneezing.
Anon
OP this poster is right though — I know a few guys in the trades and my friend’s husband literally launched his business a month before all this started, giving up a steady job with another contractor. So he is in no position to turn down work. But yeah he’s more scared for him and his family than you would think given that he’s 24 years old — he gets in and get out and is masked/gloved. He isn’t just going into one home where he can Lysol off everything in site. He is going in and out of places all day long and he wants to be in and out fast — not sit and linger.
Struggle Bus
In case you’re still reading I live in a studio apt and had to have my smoke alarm replaced last week. I left my front door ajar so I could b 6 feet away from them at all times.
Housecounsel
I highly recommend this reading this paper from the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy (CIDRAP). It outlines three potential scenarios for next 18-24 months, but doesn’t draw a conclusion on which is more likely. It does mention a cycle of restricting and relaxing, which is a possibility I hadn’t really considered.
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/sites/default/files/public/downloads/cidrap-covid19-viewpoint-part1_0.pdf
Anonymous
“It does mention a cycle of restricting and relaxing, which is a possibility I hadn’t really considered.” This drives me nuts. The idea of relaxing and tightening restrictions in response to local conditions has been out there for a long time. Search “the hammer and the dance.” Why is no one listening?
Anonymous
Ummmm most of us are? It’s been all over.
Anon
Yeah, I think that’s been a popular scenario from the beginning, but it doesn’t mean the whole country will be in locked down on and off for months. I see it more like restrictions are eased nationally and then we’ll have temporary shutdowns as new hotspots emerge.
Anon
*temporary, local shutdowns I mean.
Anonymous
I think about these things a lot. I’m not in healthcare, but I am an essential worker and I have kids; at some point, they may go to camp in a neighboring state this summer; they may go back to school in the fall. At some point, I will have to let down the people depending on me if I can’t get in some childcare or get my kids back to where they should be (there are college sitters home now and their exams are wrapping up, so they are looking for work; not sure where they will be come August and they don’t know either).
I have a feeling it’s a choppy summer and choppy fall, but we move forward. I think that permanent changes may be happening to nursing homes, transit, food plants, etc. I don’t know what happens to restaurants (they may go out of business if they can only be at 25% capacity; or commercial spaces are permanently redesigned to be like the OJ/Coffee takeout places in Miami where all you can do is get a cup to go) and movie theaters. I don’t think that festivals and sports happen with audiences (there is a Nascar race coming up sans fans, but it has a large TV viewership; local businesses counting on revenue are going to miss out; WWE without fans is not great).
But I think that the big thing for so many of us is schools. I can see a world where I resign my job to homeschool my kids if this goes on for long enough to either risk my job b/c of performance or my just being exhausted and givingup.
anon
I am very concerned about the school issue. If my kids don’t go back this fall, exactly how are we supposed to take care of them and oversee their education if our workplaces are expecting us to be back to business as usual? Long term, you are going to see so many parents (let’s face it, probably moms) dropping out of the workforce.
Anon
I’m really concerned about this too, particularly for lower income kids and families. At some point, we have to evaluate whether the long term damage to these kids – to all kids – is worth it. I agree that there will likely be fundamental changes in nursing homes, etc, but we’re damaging the futures of kids.
Anon
So much this. And there’s increasing evidence that kids don’t even really spread it. It’s horrifying to me how willing people are to trash the future of an entire generation of kids, with little to no evidence that kids are seriously endangered by this or endangering others. I guess they don’t matter because they aren’t driving the economy…but their parents need to work.
Anonymous
Those kids definitely aren’t going to run anything long run if they were behind when this started.
Anonymous
I hear you guys, but I also see a dilemma in that there is just no such thing as being able to enact social distancing in schools as they stand … even if children don’t get ill themselves, they’ll surely spread it everywhere. How can it be done? It seems improbable … or actually it seems probable (due to public demand for the free babysitting they provide) that they will open but be the source of outbreaks.
Anon
No, actually if they don’t get ill they don’t necessarily spread it. Asymptomatic spread is poorly understood at this point but there’s increasing evidence children don’t drive transmission. People (certainly all adults) will wear masks and there will be temperature checks. At least at the K-6 level, it’s easy to put children in ~20 person groups with one teacher and there’s no mixing across those groups, except possibly outdoors, where people can spread out and there’s sunlight and fresh air. 20 people really isn’t a very large group – my state now allows purely social gatherings of up to 25 people. Many states, including mine, never closed daycare centers, and there haven’t been any large outbreaks tied to those as far as I know, and babies and toddlers share their bodily fluids much more readily than school age children do. And many of those daycare centers are filled with the children of healthcare workers. I really believe if this were going to be a huge problem we’d have a lot more evidence of daycare-based spread by now.
Anyway, even if it is risky, what’s your solution? No school for 5 years? 10 years? Indefinitely? We have no idea when we’ll have a vaccine. No school for years will destroy a lot of kids’ lives and will also be devastating to our economy since most families won’t be able to have two working parents.
anon
I think they need to open and yes most kids will get it and parents will have to decide if they are ok with being exposed (I am) but interesting what that means for visits with grandparents, etc.
Seventh Sister
Vent: My state is planning to open some stuff very soon, but not a word about whether we are allowed to have non-live-in sitters or if camps will open (schools are closed for the year). While I generally approve of our governor’s performance during the crisis, it’s so so so apparent that he never needs to worry his pretty little head about childcare. This is reason 432452134 in my mind why we need more women politicians.
Anonymous
Thanks for sharing. The other overlay is when we will have antibodies or vaccines rolling into use, which would also impact the waves.
Anon
Honestly, I think people need to get their heads around the possibility that anything could happen. There were a lot of comments on the morning thread about “but they said social distancing was just to flatten the curve and now you’re saying we have to wait for ___ and ____?! That’s not what was promised!” Yes, things are changing rapidly and the situation is fluid. Roll with the punches.
pugsnbourbon
Agreed. I’m not looking much further than 2-3 days ahead at this point. I did buy airline tickets for a trip in August, but they were super cheap and there are no change fees.
Things could get better, things could get worse, but for once in my life I’m not driving myself crazy worrying about which it will be.
Pure Imagination
Yeah, I agree. It doesn’t make sense to say we’re all going to get the disease anyway, so why not now since we’re all tired of social distancing – because if we delay and spread out infections, we not only “flatten the curve,” but we learn more about risk factors, complications, and treatment protocols that may help more people survive. We don’t want everyone getting sick right now when we still know so little about what can promote the best outcomes. Better IMO to take it day by day and look to the evidence to see when to “re-open,” not to rely on public promises and previous motivations articulated by the Trump administration.
Anon
Bull.
The goalposts were moved, because no one would have agreed to the lockdowns if they were until a vaccine were developed or until wider testing. There is a lot of inertia favouring the status quo, and that was used by our government to force us into something they could never have gotten us to agree to.
The lockdowns are over. Roll with the punches.
Anon
Agreed. The reality is we have free inter-state travel – if they’re over in some areas, they’re over everywhere. End of story.
Anon
Right, and I don’t see this getting discussed. We live in a state that is still pretty locked-down and may be for at least the next few weeks. We live in the center of states that are like, whoohoo, let’s reopen! Because per federal law interstate travel can’t be restricted, if all those people in the surrounding states start moving around – and passing through our state to get from their relaxed-lockdown area to another relaxed-lockdown area? Guess what? The virus will spread regardless of what our state decides to do. They’ll carry it here into gas stations and truck stop bathrooms and into the hotels and motels that are still operating at 50% capacity. Then those workers will take it home to their families.
Some folks here are not getting it: there is no stopping the spread of the virus at this point. We are seeing, conclusively, that people will not stay in lockdown unless they are forced to at gunpoint (and maybe not even then). We are seeing that there are very different reactions and behaviors in some states than in others, and those reactions and behaviors seem to have zero relation to case counts in those states (see: people going to the movies in Texas when cases are still rising there). I am not supporting relaxing of restrictions vs. believing in the science. But I am a realist who lives in the real world and sees what’s really happening. Unless you want to live through a real, live, actual armed civil war you need to accept that people are not going to stay locked down. Or probably go into lockdown again. I fear armed insurrection, riots, mass panic and the collapse of the food supply chain more than I fear Coronavirus at this point. For the people saying “that won’t happen,” please go look at pictures of protests at the Michigan statehouse last week. Those idiots are out there. They exist. Their votes count as much as ours do. They are dangerous and they are motivated. And right now they have won and are winning the argument. So, prepare yourselves however you want but please don’t stay under any illusions that if you stay quarantined, others will also.
Anonymous
But we need to maintain state stay-home orders and school and business closures so that people who aren’t idiots can at least work from home and keep their kids home and protect their own families. As soon as our state lifts its stay-home order, my employer will be demanding that I show up in the office, and my child’s school will reopen with zero precautions. Even if the idiots are spreading it around at the gas station, I don’t want to be compelled to go back out there with them.
Anonymous
If the case rates spike in the Red States over the next two weeks, they will be locked down again. There is no way the current Administration wants to lose a bunch of red states voters.
anon
That is an extremely unfair characterization. The thread was asking about whether people had observed loosening of social distancing compliance. And many posters pointed out that yes they’d seen a lot of non-compliance and particularly recently and then explained that part of that may have been because people were told one thing in the beginning (and often still are hearing the same thing) so they aren’t really seeing the point of continuing.
Also as more and more numbers/data come out, I think some people are just a lot less scared of getting this and have decided the tradeoff of living in isolation versus not getting it isn’t worth it.
Once again, I think many posters here are wishing that we had a population that we do not in fact have. Regardless of whether you are pro or anti shutdown, the reality is every day more and more people are breaking the “rules” and that’s likely to continue as time goes on.
Anon
This.
Pure Imagination
Sure, but it doesn’t mean we stop listening to public health officials and trying to do our best to cut transmission. There will always be people who don’t follow the guidance, no matter what the issue or the law is, and it’s not a reason to stop trying and stop evolving.
anon
I’m not saying we throw in the towel but pointing out like many others have that when officials are making recommendations it’s incredibly frustrating that they seem to not account for human nature/the fact that sustained quarantine isn’t a real possibility. They need to think of other ways to mitigate better.
The current situation feels like a doctor telling a stressed out overweight single mom working two jobs that she just needs to build in diet and exercise into her life and that’s the best way to resolve whatever health complain she has but we all know that’s not a realistic possibility for that patient who is probably already doing the best she can. The doctor needs to prescribe a course of action or medicine that works for the patient in front of her not the perfect patient. The government needs to start thinking about safe ways to ease the restrictions otherwise the population is likely to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Anon
It is though, because if 10% of the population is ignoring the rules and drastically delaying the time to zero new cases, it’s not fair to the other 90% to just say oh well, sucks to be you, we’ll be on lockdown forever. The relatively short term (2-3 months) lock downs that worked for countries with much more compliant populations clearly aren’t doing the same thing for us, and it’s unrealistic to expect them to or to expect people to do something that’s clearly not sustainable (stay locked down for years).
Pure Imagination
Yeah, I get that. It’s tough though when that 10% is going to threaten progress for all of us.
Anon
“it’s not a reason to stop trying and stop evolving.”
Sorry, Pure Imagination, but I don’t see what you (and others) are doing as “trying and evolving.” I see a lot of b***hing and moaning, and Internet-policing of what other people are doing. “Evolving,” in this context, would mean evolving your understanding of current conditions and choices. If you want to evolve? Try evolving past passing judgement on others for every little thing they do or say that goes against what you think is virtuous. It would be a BIG step.
Pure Imagination
Shrug. If you want to follow my posts looking for something to attack and mischaracterize behind the Anon cover, I can’t stop you.
Anon
Hey Anon at 4:28? Stop being a creepy bully to PI (and LaurenB). You guys have got to stop looking for offense in everything they post.
Anon
Uh there are a LOT of us who find Pure and LaurenB sanctimonious and judgy. It’s definitely not all one person.
Anon
Serious question, if you find them so sanctimonious, why don’t you just ignore them? If I made a point of posting a jerky response to every little thing I didn’t like on this site every day, I wouldn’t have a life. It’s a bummer when you guys drag the whole conversation down for everyone with insults.
LaurenB
Huh? What the heck did I do here? BTW, if it makes you all feel better, I drove downtown, put one of my kids in the back seat passenger side of my car (both of us fully masked and windows open), drove to where my other kid lives in the city, and we spent a few hours walking and visiting outside, while maintaining appropriate social distance the entire time (no hugging or touching, 6 feet away). My kids are very close and hadn’t seen one another since January, neither have cars and Uber / public transportation for them is not an option right now, and it did wonders for everyone’s mental health. I came no closer to either of them, or anyone else for that matter, than I do when I am walking with my neighbor and we keep social distance.
Anon
You did nothing, LaurenB. Some posters just relish the mean girl role.
Ellen
To the entire HIVE: Please go light on our fellow hivettes! We are all in this together and it is countrepreductive to bash each other and hide behind a fake name. Anyone can do that. I think it is best that we act like a HIVE should and support each other and provide each other with succor in time of need, like this COVID has caused all of us.
Anon
Yeah – I agree with this. You need to dance with the one you brought – you can wish we had a more compliant population, or you can design public policies around reality.
Anon
Yes, exactly. This applies to a whole host of other issues, too.
Anon
+1. It’s not like people haven’t known for years that Americans, in general, prioritize independence and self-determination over collective action for the common good. That’s the basis of all 244 years of our history.
Monday
Yeah. Initially, I was getting upset with my employer almost every day for going back on something they’d said before. However, they really did think X was true/appropriate when they said it. It was their informed, well-meaning decision at that time. I was expecting them to have long-range insights on what was happening, when no one had them (still don’t, really). I have started applying this to everyone I otherwise think is credible. I make plans about one week out, no further.
Anonymous
Well, to phrase it as you did — Why don’t you get your head around the fact that the government lied to you initially & you need to do more to be safe? You fulfilled the lie and don’t see the reality. Don’t congratulate yourself for having done a good job of listening to authority and declare that now it’s over … use your critical thinking skills and develop some good judgement of your own.
Anonymous
+1
ANON
I feel like my state government has been honest and thoughtful. I feel like the federal government has been inept and dishonest. Cannot listen to both, as these really cannot be reconciled. I will go with my state and be grateful that I live where I do.
LaurenB
+1. My state government hasn’t lied to me at all. I do think it’s a shame our lakefront is not open, but I understand why the decision was made, because there are stupid people who would crowd it.
Anonymous
I read about tightening and restricting, but the problem is that we are always getting 2-week old data. You won’t know there’s been an outbreak until it’s already been raging for 2 weeks.
Anon
With more testing you could.
Anonymous
possssibly? but the government doesn’t seem to think testing is a problem?
Anonymous
Because the government is a bunch of idiots who want us all to die so they can make more money.
Anonymous
Huh? If we die, we won’t be paying taxes to fund all of this spending that has just been authorized. They may be greedy, but they aren’t stupid. They are long-term greedy if anything.
Anonymous
And in the meantime working moms don’t yet know what they need for childcare this summer. Get a nanny and hope that camps refund $. Get a no college nanny because you may need one in September still? No nanny because next week we isolate? Most working moms lock down the summer camp and sitter schedule in December or early January.
Anonymous
seriously!! my autistic son is in Montessori and that isn’t translating well to distance learning AT ALL. so if it’s distance learning for fall we’d want him to just be in the public school I think. It’s too crazy.
Anon
Let’s make this a working parent problem instead of just a moms problem and I agree. Sadly, if someone does have to stay home, in many families it will be mom. I just wanted to change it to parents because both should be worried about it and in some families, mom makes more than dad.
Clementine
Absolutely.
My family works well because I plan for contingencies. I have childcare plans and backup plans and support networks and… I’m being told to use none of them. My ability to plan has been taken away. Very fortunate that my spouse is able to cover long chunks of childcare, but realistically: if we had to make the choice of who would step out of the workforce, in the numbers game it would be me.
Seventh Sister
Vent: My state is planning to open some stuff very soon, but not a word about whether we are allowed to have non-live-in sitters or if camps will open (schools are closed for the year). While I generally approve of our governor’s performance during the crisis, it’s so so so apparent that he never needs to worry his pretty little head about childcare. This is reason 432452134 in my mind why we need more women politicians.
Seventh Sister
I”m comfortable with calling it a working mom problem. My husband does a lot more domestic work than most men, but he’s also the one who makes comments about summer like, “gosh, I wish the kids could just lounge around and do nothing at their own house then go on vacations.” It makes me want to scream because yes, we do go on vacations and have random lazy days but I can’t quit my job from June-September every year.
Orthodontist
Hooray! One kid is having an orthodontic emergency and they are going to be able to see her!!!
NOLA
That’s great news! I have felt very lucky, since I have had orthopedic issues, that my sports medicine clinic is completely separate from the hospital and larger clinic and can see me pretty easily (with restrictions, of course). They have been lifesavers in this craziness.
Ellen
I say we wait for a vaccine then make everyone get it. No if’s and’s or but’s. Otherwise to many people will get the virus and spread it to others who are not vaccined and we will be seeing it over and over and over again. FOOEY on that!
Anon
For the commenter this morning who was questioning outbreak statistics –
There is so much variation in testing and reporting that the only information I believe right now is the aggregate death rate. As an actuary, this is the kind of thing I find indisputable. Aggregate deaths are up sharply, more than is accounted for by officially reported covid-related deaths. There’s no way this increase isn’t due to covid. There is no other plausible explanation.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/3048381001
You’ll see far more reporting like this in the future.
Anonymous
I thought about that and one question I had is how do you count deaths? Is it over say rolling 12 month windows? One concern I have is whether coronavirus accelerates 2020 likely deaths into the first quarter or other distortions I haven’t thought of. One think I read a while back was that 4Q2019 “flu” deaths may, in retrospect, be questionable. We may never know for sure, especially as many victims are old and ill and many old/ill people die at home and alone and IDK if they get tested for this. Perhaps the new alone deaths do.
anon
I thought the idea was to look at all cause mortality (not looking at flu vs. other causes at all) and compare to average mortality rates for the exact same time frame in previous years (I think the UK had data from “the last 50 years,” for example). So you just count every single death (and you can pick any time frame you want–yesterday, last week, etc.)
Anon
People who are dying sooner than they otherwise would have is the issue! Not a reason to doubt that covid is killing people.
Anonymous
Can you determine that a 90-year-old who may have died in 2020 (eg nursing home in hospice care) lost 3 months due to coronavirus? Or an otherwise healthy younger person dying decades sooner? I have a feeling there are many more similar to the former and am certain that the latter is known due to that scenario’s relative rarity among the death counts. But IFK re people dying alone (for one thing — how are they exposed???!).
Anon
I feel like you’re looking for an argument that supports your point of view, but the facts are, there is a large increase in the number of deaths that really can only be attributed to COVID, whether coded as such or not.
I don’t particularly like the game you’re playing with which lives are less important either.
Anon
Just because people live alone does not mean they never go outside. It is not uncommon for someone who lives alone to die at home without anyone realizing – sometimes for days.
In the case of this virus, people who are dying at home alone go out into the community (shopping, work, church, etc.), get sick, go home and then die relatively quickly and without going to the hospital. Among other things, Covid 19 causes blood clots which can cause death by stroke or embolism without a lengthy illness.
cbackson
You can’t determine that on an individual basis, but you can determine it on a population basis. Basically, you look at whether a period of higher mortality is followed by a period of lower mortality and then a return to normal mortality, as compared to historical averages. It’s a well-studied/established form of analysis. Unfortunately, that’s very difficult to do in the moment, but retrospectively you can generally tell whether an event resulted in deaths that (on a population basis) wouldn’t have otherwise occurred vs mortality displacement (deaths that would have occurred anyway happened earlier).
So if mortality in 2021 is lower than average in the US, then we probably accelerated expected 2021 deaths into 2020. If it’s comparable to average, then people died in 2020 who wouldn’t have died in 2021. But you will virtually never know that for an individual person.
Anonymous
I think it is important to know who is dying in the totals — like if I am 70 and want to go see a grandbaby, I need to know how likely it is that I get it and if it ruins the next 15 years of my life or kills me outright. Or if it starts coming for babies. Or some other subset (chemo patients, etc.).
Also, while not deaths, the stroke % is concerning — does that get tracked? It might get younger people’s attention more than “old people are dying” if it is “young people losing ability to control their right side and having to enter a nursing home and re-learn walking.” I have read about that but don’t know the prevalence, only that people have been to scared to get care in the time frame it would have been helpful.
anonshmanon
Maybe I can explain it more clearly: You would need a detailed autopsy to determine the exact cause of death of an individual, and to link it to COVID as a cause. That’s of course difficult, and our understanding of the different complications that patients can experience with COVID is still developing (for example, younger people developing blood clots, that was something nobody was looking out for back in Feb, and maybe there were such cases that weren’t connected to COVID).
But from the all-cause mortality, you would be able to see that x number of people died in March last year, and you could compare that with how many people died in March of any year. From comparing through past years, you can get a feeling for how strong this number normally fluctuates (random fluctuations, weather related fluctuations, maybe a stronger flu wave some years). So then you know what amount of fluctuation is normal, and you can’t read too much into that.
When you compare total mortality from THIS year March to past years, you notice an immediate spike, and in some regions such as NY, not all these additional deaths have been officially assigned to COVID as a cause.
So more people are dying than in ordinary years, even when accounted for diagnosed COVID patients. So then you think about which causes of death are likely to have increased, decreased or stayed constant. There is no reason to assume that more people are suddenly getting cancer or diabetes at higher rates than they usually get. One might even expect fewer deaths from traffic accidents, partying or extreme sports. I could certainly understand more stress related health complications, and I would say there is one single thing that is putting a higher amount of stress on everyone. There is such a shortage of tests, that it would be reasonable to assume that people die of COVID without having been tested and diagnosed. That’s how we arrive at the conclusion that the all-cause mortality number indicates that even more people die of COVID than the ones in the official statistic.
LaurenB
The NYTimes has a great set of stats, done by metropolitan statistical area (which means that the comment section is ad nauseum “but you overstated my town!” – yes, because we’re going by MSA, move on).
Spouse Rant
Ugh sometimes being stuck in this house with my husband for 9+ weeks now is really draining. Periodically he gets into these moods where it’s like being married to a teenage girl. Like when I say to you oh I’m thinking x for dinner, don’t just give me a blank stare and not acknowledge what I say. Or become really aggressive about everything.
He’s on meds and has issues with anxiety/depression. Today’s one of those flare- up days.
I love him, and he’s been a generally great quarantine partner, but there are also days I want to strangle him. We have to do this family zoom thing tonight, and then I am off to my own corner of the house to decompress this evening.
Anon
I feel you. My husband and I have been at odds since Saturday night. It’s a combination of too much togetherness and the fact that he gets kind of mean when he drinks. It wasn’t anything much, just a remark that offended me and I said so, and now I’m being “overly sensitive.” Just apologize, a-hole!
Anon
The blank stare with no acknowledgment was an SSRI thing for me. I needed different meds (and ultimately a different diagnosis).
OP
Interesting, thanks. He does it frequently. Sometimes I can tell the wheels are clearly not turning because his brain is working on something else and sometimes it feels like he just doesn’t owe me a response (a very subtle attitude difference). They both may ultimately be caused by the same thing, but it drives me nuts.
Anonymous
I tried on my dress pants for the first time in 7 weeks and yep, they’re pretty tight… so based on some posts here I started paying attention to food intake. Not setting any goals, not changing anything, just entering food into MyFitness Pal and getting an idea of my calories/macros (for the first time ever). Eye opening to say the least! Who knew my mindless snacking on convenience store snacks would add up to an entire dinner’s worth of calories?! Thanks to everyone who has given advice lately, I appreciate the gentle nudge into food tracking.
Anon
I try to avoid calorie-counting because my perfectionist nature would not play nicely with it, but I found it very helpful to get rough estimates of the calorie counts of meals I commonly eat. Might have mentioned this, but there’s one Trader Joe’s pizza that is approximately as filling as a rice cake and has almost 700 calories. That promptly became an item to never buy again.
NOLA
Oh, that is absolutely true for me. Until I started tracking, I had no idea what the heck I was eating and I was mindlessly snacking. I also sync with Map My Run and Map My Ride, but I don’t then allow myself those calories. My weight has crept up a little in the past week since my accident and trying to get off of meloxicam, but I’m getting back to eating really sensibly. It’s the weekends that get me! I had a burger on Saturday for the first time in probably two years, made chicken parmesan for dinner (with pasta and bread, of course) and had a full sugar snoball. Getting on the scale yesterday was frightening!
Anonymous
I’ve wondered about syncing – thank you for the tips!! I hear you on the weekends!
Abby
Not sure if you’re interested in tracking your weight, but I use an app called Happy Scale and weigh myself everyday. I know weighing yourself isn’t for everyone, but I’m able to view it as data. It’s pretty interesting to learn my body’s pattern of fluctuation. The app graphs out your weight trend and averages your weight for the past 10 days so you know the direction you’re headed.
Nice job tracking food though! I found it helped me prioritize what I want to eat. Yes to more good food, veggie straws are not worth it.
Car servicing
My car is telling me it needs its oil changed. It’s not like a “must do tomorrow” urgent, but it definitely needs it in the next 1-2 months (also do not want to be without a car during this crisis). I’m planning to just drive it to the dealer and get it over with as I don’t see things getting all that much better in 30 days. I do not have the capability to change the oil by myself at all. I can drive to the dealer, leave it, and walk home (30 minute city walk through Chicago), which I think should be pretty low risk right? I’m also not a high infection risk, so I’m guessing I’m overthinking this?
Anon
The risk of dropping your car off for an oil change is quite low and is something that is certainly necessary, so I would go ahead and make an appointment to do it. Ask the garage what their protocols are.
Anon
+1 – they may even offer to pick up and drop off the car for you
Anonymous
You’re over thinking this. Also changing your oil takes like 30 minutes. Wait there while they do it.
FormerlyPhilly
Check with dealer/auto body shop. In my area, dealers are doing pick-up and drop-off CONTACT FREE.
AnonATL
We had to get my husband’s car serviced a few weeks ago. They were surprisingly busy, but we just dropped it off, picked it up later, and made sure to wipe down as many touchpoints as possible.
He said they put paper seat covers and a steering wheel cover on.
I think the risk is pretty low, especially if you have the luxury of letting it sit for a few days post-servicing for the germs to die.
NY CPA
There’s a difference between needing more oil vs needing an oil change. If you need more oil, that is SUPER easy to DIY, and I’m someone who’s terrified of trying to do anything car-related. You just buy a quart or two at a gas station, open the hood, screw off a cap, and (carefully) pour it in. If you need an oil change just bc you’ve passed X,000 miles, that can definitely wait.
Anon
Go to Groupon, get a coupon for a Valvoline instant oil change, and get your oil changed without leaving your car. Boom, done.
Anon
Call them and ask. Sometimes you don’t even need to exit your car for an oil change — or they make you exit for your own safety if they’re going to jack the car up really high yet they don’t get in the car; it’s all done externally. If you leave the car, then they are likely going to have to get in — they need to drive it off into a parking area for you to pick it back up when they’re done so they can work on the next car.
LaurenB
My 77 yo mother had to take her car in for a repair. It was fine. Walk outside during the repair (easier now that the weather is getting better), and when you get back in the car, wipe it down where it’s been touched (and wipe off the keys). They’re happy to be as contactless with you as possible; they only want to be in your car for whatever is necessary to complete the repair (such as turning the car on or driving it into a bay).
Michigan
Do you think politicians are able to not paint themselves into a corner on their choices? My local officials had some initial overreaction that the course-corrected on a month later. Even our state has course-corrected. But in Michigan, I have dim hopes that anything will ever relax and I feel that will be bad for people. And Michigan isn’t all Detroit — a lot of statewide rules maybe should be for metro-Detroit but not for places like the UP.
kk
I think a few crazies in Michigan (and Virginia, and elsewhere) are really loud and receiving a lot of coverage, but most people are just doing the best they can- being careful, reading the news, trying to follow instructions.
Anon
Not OP but my friend is in Ann Arbor (a liberal and educated, definitely not Trump supporting, area) and she says no one there is obeying the rules. And not just the college kids.
Z
I’m in Ann Arbor right now. I drove through Main Street area the other day to pick up take-out, there were a couple roaming groups of teenagers but you’ll find them ignoring the rules in just about any town. There aren’t any college kids around, they all left.
I went for a run the other day and only passed a couple other people outside. It’s really fine.
Anon
Yeah I mean my friend wasn’t panicking or anything, she just said she knows a lot of people who are breaking the rules. That’s probably true in most places though.
Z
It’s just hyperbole to say that “everyone is breaking the rules” when there is definitely a larger population of people who are following the rules, you just don’t see/hear about them.
Anon
People can be violating the rules without congregating in the streets.
Anonymous
Obviously you are wrong. Michigan isn’t staying locked down forever this is silly
Abby
Are you in Metro Detroit? I actually think Michigan is on course to relax! DH’s program is slowly ramping back up starting this week, apparently we need to be in a downward trend for 14 days to open up more, and last week we were at 5 days of good numbers. I do think there are more people hanging out on purpose 6 feet away, especially with the good weather recently. The protests made me very embarrassed for our state, and I hope we don’t see a spike in numbers because of it.
Anonymous
Is anyone refinancing their mortgage now? (If you can get through?) Our 30-year is locked at like 3.75 so I’m not sure it makes sense for us.
Airplane.
Nah, I looked into it when rates were dropping at the beginning of all this but our 30 year is locked at 3.25 so not seeing much better out there.
Anon
We just closed at 3.125% 30 yr fixed with a Costco partner. Home in Bay Area, CA.
Airplane.
Interesting, maybe I will look again!
anon
same rate except we are in socal and we didn’t go through costco (prob should have!).
Pure Imagination
I rent, but my best friend just refinanced to 3.25. Sounds like it was worth it to her.
Diana Barry
No, we have a jumbo that is over the limit from the new tax law in 2017 so we’re leaving it – we would still have to pay it down a lot to get under the 750K limit.
anon
If you refinance a grandfathered loan, you should still be grandfathered in,
Anonymous
I’ve looked into it a couple of times. You have to time it perfectly to get much below 3.25 or so, but it is out there. We are in the low 3’s already and ultimately decided just to let it go. I’d rather keep the cash right now than pay closing costs with all the uncertainty.
Anon
I’m at 3.85%. It’s not worth it for me unless I can get around 3.25%. A lot of places instituted rate floors to help turn off the bleeding during the Great Refi Rush of mid/late March – my sister locked 30 yr fixed confirming at 2.85% on March 28 for a little anecdata for ya.
I’m keeping a keen eye on it but for the moment the best I’ve seen for my jumbo 30-yr fixed is 3.625%, and that’s not enough immediate savings for me to justify the cost. All the forward rate curves are projected to stay low so it’s possible that once banks come up for air after PPP and the resi refi rush of last 4-6 weeks that there might be an opening again. I check 1x/week at the local credit unions that appear to have the most aggressive rates and then I move on.
Anon
I am. Going from a 30 year at 4.25% (just over 5 years in, condo so couldn’t get lower at the time) to a 20 year at 3.125%. I’ll pay about $30 more a month and shave off five years of the loan.
anon a mouse
Has anyone ordered from Amour Vert and can comment on sizing and quality? Their stuff looks nice in the catalog but as a very curvy 12-14 I’m not sure it would translate well to my body.
Anon
I can’t comment on how it would fit your body type, but there’s a brick and mortar store in my city, and when I visited I was really impressed with the quality of the fabrics. And the shoes are lovely – appear sturdy and very well made.
Anonymous
I can’t comment on sizing either, but I liked the quality and keep on the lookout for their silk shirts and dresses when they go on sale.
anon
l vary between 8-10 and usually wear a medium in amour vert. One slimmer cut top I had to get a large. The silk is really nice quality. I often wear through sweaters and tops at the elbow (pointy elbows? furious typing?) and this has happened with a few tops from there so just something to be aware of.
Anon
I’m about your size and proportions and I love my wrap-type modal shirts from there. They’re a few years old and just starting to get to the point where I might retire them. I don’t think the modal dresses would look good on me, though.
We are reopening at work
Let the trying-on of fitted garments commence!
Anon
On a somewhat lighter note, I have limited in-ground garden space and already have tomato plants there. What vegetables or fruits other than tomatoes have you had luck growing in pots? I have both sunny and shady areas for pots, and some in between.
Bonus points if I can grow from seed. I’m one of those chronic coughed (allergies) and I don’t want to freak everyone out at the nursery – would rather mail order seeds.
anonshmanon
sugar snap peas, ideally if they have something to climb on. Peppers if you have a sunny inside spot where the plant could hang out in winter. For peppers, the purple varieties are super fun. Strawberries. We’ve even done poatoes on the balcony at one point. Spring onions regrow from the bulb.
Anonymous
Keep in mind many, many seed companies are very delayed in mailing out seeds. Do any nurseries near you do curbside pick up where you can place a set of orders and then just get them in one go with a mask?
HEre are my suggestions for good potted plants – I have these growing on my patio right now!
– green onions (super easy from starts), onions. i also sprinkle carrot seeds in since the onion scent deters carrot root flies.
– chives, dill, oregano
– lettuces, arugula, spinach. i will replace these with a small bush bean plant
– radishes, salad greens
– peas (bunching type) although it may be a little late for them depending on where you are
– potatoes. i have these in felted pots that are easy to pack up and store in the winter. highly recommend
i haven’t had good luck with brassicas in pots so i mostly stick with other greens. ive also never tried turnips kohlrabi beets etc. as i felt like they were space hogs for pots but might try them later this summer now that i have way more felt pots!
Anonymous
Might be too late bit – peas, lettuce and spinach and such, maybe radishes? All very easy to grow from seed. And don’t forget basil, mint and other herbs!
Belle Boyd
Herbs grow well in pots but if you are planning to put mint in a pot MAKE SURE TO PUT SOME KIND OF MAT DOWN UNDER IT!!!! Mint is crazy invasive and will grow out through the drainage holes of the pot and take root in your yard. Then, getting rid of that mint plant is a task that all but requires napalm. You have to dig down to and destroy the taproot, otherwise you will have mint coming up and taking root in your yard. I know this because I was stupid and ambitious one year many years ago and planted mint directly in my garden. I am still finding it after many, many search-and-destroy missions.
Also, you can grow cucumbers in hanging baskets. My local nursery sells the baskets every year. They also sell strawberries this way too. Just a word of caution about the strawberries – birds LOVE them, so be prepared to cover them with netting or put up with no strawberries and a lot of bird p00p if you put the hanging basket on your porch or deck.
My local nursery is doing curb service — call ahead, tell them what you want and arrange a pickup time and they’ll have your order ready to load in your car and off you go. I love browsing through all the plants and deciding what I want to try and grow each year, so I’ll venture out with my mask on, but call your local nursery and see if they offer this service. Plus, you’ll be supporting a local business!
OP
I’m still here, still reading. Thanks for your responses! I’m making notes.
I’m in the inner Bay Area so late for planting but it doesn’t get super hot here so cool season things tend to work ok. I can only grow certain tomatoes (mostly early girl and cherry tomatoes) so I have those covered.
Anon
You may have better luck getting actual plants delivered! A lot of place have holds on seeds but will ship seedlings. There are container varieties of lots of veggies like cucumber, eggplant, etc.