This post may contain affiliate links and Corporette® may earn commissions for purchases made through links in this post. As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases.
Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
I was going back and forth between this top and another top that I really liked — and I came to this green one and I said, NOPE, that's the one I want to feature on Friday. I like jewel tones like green — and I've already noted that I think it's a fun trend for fall. This top is great for work or beyond, is easy care (ish – “hand wash”) — and it's under $30. Sign me up. It's available in 13 (!) colors, in regular and petites, for $29. Pleione High/Low V-Neck Mixed Media Top
Here's a plus-size option that's also in the sale.
Psst: Note to all of you who aren't Nordstrom cardholders: the Nordstrom Anniversary Sale is open to everyone today — check out our roundup of shoes and clothes if you haven't already! Don't forget that our giveaway closes in just a few hours (11:30 ET) — so if you haven't entered yet, please do!
Seen a great piece you'd like to recommend? Please e-mail tps@corporette.com.
(L-all
Sales of note for 10.10.24
- Nordstrom – Extra 25% off clearance (through 10/14); there's a lot from reader favorites like Boss, FARM Rio, Marc Fisher LTD, AGL, and more. Plus: free 2-day shipping, and cardmembers earn 6x points per dollar (3X the points on beauty).
- Ann Taylor – Extra 50% off sale (ends 10/12)
- Banana Republic Factory – Up to 50% off everything plus extra 25% off your $125+ purchase
- Boden – 10% off new styles with code; free shipping over $75
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off a lot of sale items, with code
- J.Crew – 40% off sitewide
- J.Crew Factory – 50% off entire site, plus extra 25% off orders $150+
- Lo & Sons – Fall Sale, up to 35% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Sale on sale, up to 85% off
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – 50% off 2+ markdowns
- Target – Circle week, deals on 1000s of items
- White House Black Market – Buy one, get one – 50% off full price styles
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
KT
Does anyone work out at home at home without a ton of machines? What home workouts do you find effective?
emeralds
I mostly do barre classes at a studio now, but for a while I did Pop Pilates six days a week. She can be kind of annoying, but if you mute her the workouts are really good. The most equipment that you’d need is a pair of hand weights and access to YouTube. I still do her videos if I’m traveling or something.
Syd
Jillian Michaels 30 Day Shred (small hand weights only and you wouldn’t even need those). I finally got this after seeing it recommend a bunch here and it is great. Good overall body workout and quick.
Anonymous
+1 this is the workout I did to get ready for my wedding.
Anon
I love 30 day shred too. I find it very effective.
BeenThatGuy
You’ll be surprised at how great of a workout you can do at home just by doing body weight exercises (squats, push-ups, burpees, planks). Throw in a jumprope and/or kettlebell and you’ll up the intensity. Pintrest is loaded with workouts to follow.
Anonymous
I have a Pilates for Weight Loss DVD. I don’t do it that often but it seems to be about as difficult and effective as the pilates classes I’ve taken.
Anonymous
Ballet beautiful videos are super effective for me.
anon8
Fitness Blender on YouTube. I’m still a beginner and I’m getting started with their cardio workouts. They also have strength videos and ones to target specific areas – lower body, abs, etc. The variety of workouts keep me from getting bored. Everything is free although on their website they do have specific workout bundles for sale.
Kay
+1,000,000
Emmer
You definitely don’t need machines. Others have given you great video recs – in my experience, the good videos require at most a set (or two)of dumbells and soft mat or rug to work out on. That’s it.
Sydney Bristow
I like using Nerd Fitness’s Academy workouts. I do the Bodyweight Brigade workouts that require just a dumbbell. At some point they use a pull up bar too but most exercises have alternatives so you don’t need equipment.
Susan
TRX straps are great for working out at home.
Anonymous
I know there have been a few posts about BBG lately. I’ve started doing the workouts (on week 2 right now) and they are effective. Similar to workouts that I used to do with a personal trainer. There is some gear that is required, but you don’t need big machines to do it. In terms of gear, you would need hand weights, a medicine ball, a bosu, 2 benches or steps, and a jump rope. Probably a yoga mat too, for floor work. Personally, I am not coordinated enough to jump rope so I just do jumping jacks instead.
APP123
I know a lot of people don’t like the business model (and I am one of them), but the Beachbody workouts are really, really good. I bought the DVDs on Amazon, but I think they also have a streaming service now. Lately I like 21DayFix the best (the workouts, I don’t do the food stuff at all), but I have also done T25 and Insanity. They are all really good workouts, but I got into killer shape when I did Insanity (which requires no equipment at all). You need hand weights for 21 day fix (I use 8 and 12 lb dumbbells).
Midwest Mama
I agree. And I love that so many of their workouts are short (30 min or less) but effective with very little equipment, if any, necessary. Plus T25, Insanity Max30, and 21 Day Fix have a modifier in their workouts so they’re appropriate for all fitness levels.
VA Anon
Seven Minute Workout app on my tablet
Anonymous
+1 to this — you can get a great workout with Tabata.
M
Toneitup.com has tons of videos you can do with a set of dumbbells, a kettlebell, resistance bands, foam roller, or an exercise ball (pick your poison)…or just bodyweight. Exercises are similar to fitness classes at the gym/yoga studio and just as effective. If you only buy one thing, get dumbbells.
skin peels?
My skin seems to have a lot of mileage on it: some sun damage, larger red splotches left over from adult acne outbursts, icepick scars from older acne, and now some light wrinkles. Summer doesn’t help: all of the sunscreen seems to clog my pores even more.
Has anyone had a peel (or anything stronger than drugstore retinols) to try to reboot one’s skin somewhat?
I can remember maybe an AbFab episode where this went tragically wrong. I don’t want anything that would be more than 2 days + a weekend out of work (and preferably not even that). Peeling is OK (happens to the sunburned) but scabs all over would not be.
Also, is this a dermatologist question (I feel like they aren’t for vanity-only quests) or more of a med-spa thing? Or just a spa thing?
BeenThatGuy
I’ve had great success with glycolic peels. I recommend a series of 6, done about every 3-4 weeks. I’d suggest a med-spa only because I’ve had better experiences there than at a regular spa. With strong glycolic peels, if someone is not trained properly, you can get burn marks (not permanent but not pretty either).
I’ve also had a laser series done, specifically for brown spots, that I do not recommend. It was very, very expensive, painful and the results did not wow me. Plus with any sun exposure, those spots come back pretty quickly.
Delta Dawn
Agree about being underwhelmed with laser treatment on spots. I have tried that, and the cost far exceeded the benefit. I have not done a peel, but a college roommate of mine had a TERRIBLE experience. It was a Groupon, which may have been mistake number one. It was the real life version of the SATC episode mentioned below where Samantha gets a disastrous chemical peel. I would choose someone based on personal recommendations, because I’m sure when done correctly they are beneficial.
Anonymous
There was definitely an episode of SATC where Samantha got a bad chemical peel.
lawsuited
I do a peel at home once a week, and also use a chemical exfoliator (AHA) in my daily skin routine. I like Philosophy The Microdelivery Dual Phase Peel and Ole Henrikson Power Peel. I wear makeup daily so I’m most concerned about even texture rather than even tone, and they do a great job of making my skin look smooth and clear under make-up but I’ve still got sun spots.
Anon
I also do at home peels using the Ole Henricksen Power Peel, twice a month. Others like gentler and slower daily peels, but I’m not one for that sort of patience.
My problem is mostly sun spots and tired looking skin, which has improved greatly over the last few months. But I also make sure to use sun screen, wash well, and apply skin care products daily, most of which were not habits in the past.
I think you are fine going to a med spa, as they are also licensed for tgis sort of thing. I’d only go to a dermatologist if I have skin cancer concern or something medical related.
Anon
I would ask a dermatologist. I had a different skin issue and tried all sorts of spa things, skin care regimens, plastic surgeon treatments (lasers), and no success til I started working with 2 dermatologists. There’s a lot of talk here that aGP can do whatever your derm can, but your derm spends all day thinking about and studying skin, so go to a dermatologist. You only have one face…
AZCPA
I would definitely consider this a dermatologist thing – I’ve seen/had sketchy experiences with med spas. they may be licensed, but so many of them ones I’ve seen are cash cow type businesses, so not as concerned abut patient results. One example is Botox – it is at its maximum efficacy only the day it is mixed. Derm offices are good about disposing of any that is remaining at the end of the day, but Med Spas will often use the batch until it is gone. Through my derm office, I’ve done a lot of ‘skin freshening’ treatments including peels, laser tightening, botox, etc. and current look about 15 years younger than I am. There are plenty of gentle peels where the downtime is about what you described, plus other options with even less recovery.
Anon
Except the featured color is completely sold out and it’s 8:50am on the East Coast. Womp.
There are quite a few mumsy prints left though.
Veronica Mars
Check back. I did my first round of orders at 7am, and a bunch of things have been selling out and popping back in different sizes since then. I haven’t seen any completely out of stocks come back, but some of the sizes/colors for different items seem to be updating.
Veronica Mars
For all the non-card holders, how’d you do at the NAS? I managed to grab the Leith v neck dress in both colors, the lush strappy top, and 2 of the alainn necklaces. I’m still hitting refresh on the BlankNYC Morning Suede jacket (probably my best bet is checking throughout the week for a restock). I’ll also probably talk myself into picking up the Skirt in one or both colors. Anyone else waiting for some restocks?
Cb
PSA for UK folks: Once you get past the mumsy prints, Seasalt is a hidden gem. Wearing the nicest blue patterned shirt dress that I picked up in the sales. Lined through the body, lovely soft fabric, and well-made. Swapped out the fabric belt for an orange one and I was good to go. It’s a good thing it fit – it’s been warm here and my stash of summer clothes is depleted. I had to give a lecture today so needed to look somewhat smart.
Kk
I have an older version of the Skirt and I’m not convinced that this years version is the same- there’s an odd third seam now, running straight down the middle. If you get it, please report back!
Anonymous
Fellow non-cardholder here. Can’t bring myself to apply for a credit card just so I can get early access to the sale. I am waiting on a restock of a Classiques Entier sheath dress and a turtleneck sweatshirt. I scored a Vince Camuto wrap dress in two sizes to try, a bunch of the Donna Karan hose that are practically invisible on me, and a tie-dye top and some Zella Girl activewear for my daughter. I would have bought the gray Classiques Entier suit if the pants were lined or the skirt were a normal pencil skirt instead of a faux wrap. Trying to convince myself that I really do not need another pair of ankle boots and that they won’t fit me anyway because they only come in medium width. Had to restrain myself on the Zella leggings because I already have a zillion pairs.
Veronica Mars
I agree. I don’t want another card. Keep refreshing! My jacket came back in stock, but the wrong color. I would pass on the boots, but Zella is so wonderful…
Wildkitten
I got the debit card for early access. It’s not an additional credit card, it connects to your bank account. I didn’t know that was a thing until someone here mentioned it. I don’t want another card either.
Anonattorney
I have the same thing.
SFAttorney
Never have a problem returning. Sometimes I go to the concierge desk on the main floor. Quick and easy.
AttiredAttorney
Does anyone ever feel guilty about making massive amounts of in-store returns from an online order? Nothing I liked in the NAS is available in a store near me, and my sizing is inconsistent. So, I just ordered four dresses, each in two different sizes, for a total of about $900. I will probably keep two of them ($250ish) if two styles fit well, and will keep none if I don’t absolutely love them, meaning my in-store return will be at least $650 and potentially $900. I know Nordstrom’s customer service is phenomenal, but so many other stores give you “the look” when you return large online orders in store (ie every Ann Taylor I’ve ever been to).
CountC
Nope. If they hate in-store returns so much, they should do away with the policy. No guilt whatsoever.
Anonymous
They give you a return mailing label, why not just send them back?
CountC
Although I feel no guilt, this is usually what I do because who wants to spend the time going to the store when I can throw it in the outgoing mail bin at work!
ck
+1
Much quicker for me to mail back.
anon-oh-no
I usually don’t send them back because (a) there is a store very near my office; (b) I often get things in multiple packages and/or over time and they just pile up in my office. Trying to ensure everything is being sent back with the right packing slip etc is more difficult; and (c) the environmental “costs” of the extra shipping — the only thing that bugs me about the ease of ordering on line and trying at home is that the stuff often comes in a bunch of different packages. By walking the returns back to the store, at least I am saving one package from shipping.
Two Cents
So this was years ago, but I made a ton of in-store returns ($1000) at the Bethesda location and definitely got the side-eye, which I was surprised by and certainly didn’t appreciate it. I pretty much exclusively buy from Nordstrom, am a credit card holder, and am very loyal. So it did rub me the wrong way. I hope that was an isolated experience. I now live too far from the store location so I do everything by mail.
Anonymous
I hate making any in-store returns at Nordstrom. At the regular checkout counters they always try to steer me to another counter (Oh, gosh, we are so busy in this department, why don’t you go over there where there isn’t anyone behind the counter?). The new “service bar” counter doesn’t engage in that, but they are always busy chatting with each other behind the counter and act quite supercilious when they finally pause their conversation to handle the return. I still do in-store returns because they lost an item I returned once, although they fixed it right away.
Honestly, if they don’t want their customers making tons of returns, they need to actually stock the merchandise in the store so people can try it on. The newer Nordstrom stores are just big empty wastelands punctuated by a few displays. The older stores seem to have more merchandise, but they never have the items or sizes I’m looking for.
NY Native
The store closest to me just added a special return counter. It’s 2 feet away from the busiest entrance to the store (from the parking garage), and the person manning the counter does very little except returns so s/he is generally quick and efficient. It’s so much better than roaming around the store trying to find an open register.
My store is very small and nothing that I have ever purchased from the online version has been available in the store to try on or purchase.
Senior Attorney
If there’s a Rack near you, you can take your returns there even from “regular” Nordie’s online purchases. I do that and feel less guilty because the sales people are not on commission. Plus it’s super quick. Just a thought.
orange
Wow, I had no idea. The Rack near me is way closer than the regular store.
Wildkitten
Same! Wow! I am going to do this. Thanks!
Wildkitten
Same! Wow! I am going to do this. Thanks!
Wildkitten
Frugal Friday has never been so literal for me.
Anonypotamus
Is this really true? Have others done this successfully. I always thought you had to return to regular Nordstrom’s.
Senior Attorney
I wouldn’t kid ya… ;)
Senior Attorney
I’m moving next weekend and am packing up my house today. Argh. Trying to get rid of some of the memorabilia in boxes in the garage but it’s just so hard!! Gah…
That is all. Just a whine for a Friday. Carry on.
Senior Attorney
And… that was supposed to be at the end of the thread.
Fail.
pockets
I buy from Nordstrom online and return to Rack all the time.
NOLA
We don’t have a Rack here (yet – coming soon), but I know that Last Call accepts returns from the regular NM.
anon-oh-no
the reverse is also true. I was the lucky recipient of a Milly dress someone had found at the Rack and returned to a regular Nordstrom. it was super cheep.
Feb Vacation?
I am thinking of taking a family vacation to a spot along the Gulf Coast in early/mid-February. It would be me, my husband, our two kids (6 and 3) and maybe our au pair. Any recommendations for spots? I love New Orleans but would prefer not to go during Mardi Gras season. We don’t want to leave the country (complicated for the au pair). We live in New England so are looking for warmer weather (not hard to achieve when temps will average 10 degrees Farenheit where we live at that time of year). AirBNB or Hotel?
Anonymous
I would recommend South Florida – Miami or the Keys – for really nice weather in February. If you’re really wedded to the Gulf Coast, Marco Island is nice.
NOLA
I personally love Fairhope/Point Clear Alabama. The Grand Hotel is a resort and it’s lovely. Right on Mobile Bay. There are other things to do in that area. I have gone at Thanksgiving and gotten a water side room. Absolutely heavenly. And you’re right – New Orleans during Carnival season is a different kettle of fish.
Cat
I’d stick with South Florida for the best chance of beach weather in winter. Go to Naples/Marco Island! There are tons of VRBO/AirBnB condo options that are beachfront or nearly beachfront, particularly slightly north of downtown (Vanderbilt Beach is the neighborhood that my family has stayed in). It can be tricky / expensive to fly into Ft Myers (the closest airport) depending on your origin city, but Ft Lauderdale is actually only about 1.5 hours away.
Munich leisure wear
New Orleans on a weekend after Epiphany but before the week before Mardi Gras could be very fun. Can be much warmer (but can still be quite cold) and you can actually enjoy night parades on Saturday and do things during the day w/o crowds and get in to good hotels and restaurants. I’d recommend staying in the Garden District or Warehouse District and not in the quarter.
lost academic
I’m a big fan of Gulf Breeze by Pensacola. Enough to do for the family, cost effective, great food.
Anon
Maybe a bit farther than you would like, but sanibel island is the best. My family always went there when I was growing up, and I still love it. Super laid back, very family-friendly, not too expensive.
Leatty
I have this shirt in two colors and love it! In fact, I’m wearing it now.
Meg Murry
Does it look good in person? Maybe it’s just my screen, but every time I see this top I think it’s a scrub top at first glance
Leatty
Does it look good in person? Maybe it’s just my screen, but every time I see this top I think it’s a scrub top at first glance
Anon
+1 *scrolls down* why is there a women wearing scrubs featured??
Mariah
I think it would probably look pretty good on me but every single color I looked at I thought “SCRUBS.” Might go see if the local Nordstrom has it in stock. I liked the other option better, honestly.
DC personal trainer
DC ladies, any suggestions for an excellent personal trainer who will come to your home (we have a large gym in our building)? Bonus points if they have experience working with women post partum. We live in upper NW. Thanks!
DC personal trainer
Any leads for a great personal trainer in DC who will come to your home (we have a large gym in our building)? Bonus if they have experience working with women to lose baby weight. We live in upper NW.
Cc
Yes! Agnese bekere. I found her on thumbtack and she came to me in Woodley park. Great energy and got my in shape for my wedding. Pushes you put not mean or anything
OP
Thanks! Do you have her email? She doesn’t seem to have a website and I can’t find her on FB or LinkedIn.
Cc
Yes I will come back When I find it- she is on linked in as Agnese bekere-Bellani and her business name is right now results. You can also message her on thumbtack if you google her name and DC or thumbtack it should come right up
OP
I found it! Thanks, I’ll reach out. :) How much does she charge?
Anonymous
I’m dying over the new Prince George photos. He is so adorable.
Anonymous
Agreed, and I don’t even like kids.
Senior Attorney
I die. He is so adorably serious!
OCD
Anyone have experience with atypical OCD that is basically just obsessions instead of obsessions and compulsions? A psychiatrist mentioned it–and in fact said what I was describing sounded “classic”–and it, maybe, puts some of my history in perspective. Including things that I always figured were just character flaws. But I’m in my 30s; this seems like the kind of thing I should have figured out before. And I’ve mostly been able to function pretty well.
My thoughts are kind of muddled on this. Just curious if this is something other people have experienced, I guess.
ck
Do you mean, more like thoughts you have to ruminate over, without having to do any “actions” to release the built up anxiety? Or could you give an example?
Ruminating can be quite common, but the trick is knowing when it is interfering with your thinking/life and needs to be addressed more aggressively.
I think it may take a little time to talk this through with your psychiatrist/therapist. Therapy will be important, even more than meds for this. It is often combined with anxiety issues or other underlying mood disorders.
But it can get better!
OCD
It’s a couple of things. The rumination is one part – and, thinking about it, there have been, I guess, point where I have used “actions” to release the anxiety (e.g., obsessing over someone making a change in their life that would affect me and obsessively checking their facebook page for hints, which sounds horrible to type out. The action part of that has been less prominent in the last couple of years but not gone). And the other part, that really seemed to be a clue for her, is intrusive thoughts about suicide, which have always been there but which have been out of control lately. I wouldn’t act on it but it’s like a loop in my head.
I appreciate your comment! I do have a therapist, who referred me to the psychiatrist.
ck
Thanks for sharing this.
It’s really great that you have a therapist who seems on the ball and knew when a psychiatrist could help. The combination of a medication and therapy will be the best for this. I have a good feeling that you will be able to get to a better place.
Your “actions” are not horrible all and seem quite typical, actually. You’re being way too hard on yourself, but part of you may realize that. It’s never good if these thoughts are absorbing so much of your valuable mental space. In addition, to have intrusive thoughts about suicide for so long is really weighing…… and it will be such a relief for you when they are lighter. It will happen.
You’ll get through this. One day at a time. You can do it!
OCD
Thank you, CK. Really, really appreciate the kind words, and it’s nice to think there’s a path forward.
Anonymous
I have this as a component of my anxiety disorder. The obsessions are definitely an anxiety response – I’ll have a stray thought that causes a flash of anxiety, and the next thought will be a shift to the obsessive thought. The obsessive thought is almost always tangentially related to the “real” anxiety issue.
OCD
Thanks for your comment – that does sound like me. I do have anxiety issues, and tangentially related is a good description. Nice to know I’m not alone on this.
Anonymous
So for the obsessive thoughts of suicide, I’d be asking myself what I currently feel guilty/embarrassed/ashamed, etc. about (that I’m not really addressing properly). I’d bet money your thoughts ares not about suicide itself but maybe a desire to run away or hide from something distressing in your life.
Anon
Ditto. Before going on meds, I’d get anxiety from e.g. Things not being in their correct places. My therapist explained that when your life seems out of control, you focus on other minutiae.
pugsnbourbon
Yep. Was diagnosed with OCD as a teenager. As a kid, I’d engage in certain compulsions – hand washing, putting things a very specific way – but as I got older it morphed into obsessive thoughts. Lots of them would start as those awful intrusive thoughts and then they’d just keep going around and around in my head. Anxiety and OCD are very closely linked.
I did CBT from age 13-15. At 19, I’d also developed anorexia and depression, and my doc put me on an SSRI. It really helped calm that “buzz” of anxiety and obsessive thoughts, which in turn helped me work on getting better. I still take an SSRI ten years later and I’ll probably take it for the rest of my life.
Talk to your doc and hang in there. Getting a diagnosis is sometimes hard to process, so go easy on yourself. These aren’t character flaws by any means.
OCD
Thanks, pugsnbourbon. I also have a history of (not particularly serious, but all the same) eating disorders, which I gather can be related. I appreciate the kind words.
AnonforThis
Yup. I’m diagnosed and on meds, and it’s also anxiety-related for me. I can have just obsessive/intrusive thoughts without needing actions (although I will also say that some things I did turned out to be compulsions that I didn’t think were, so that’s worth considering). I read the book “Overcoming Obsessive Thoughts: How to Gain Control of Your OCD” (from Amazon) and it has a chapter on pure thought-based OCD. I don’t love this book overall but it may be worth reading for you just to learn about that side of things.
Edna Mazur
We have a wedding coming up and the only thing the couple is registered for is a honey fund. My husband thinks those are tacky and refuses to do that. Would a gift card to a nice restaurant in their city be appropriate? Just a check? Ugh.
Anonymous
Just a check is the most common gift at weddings and the one that most people want.
X
This really depends on the region. Where I’m from, checks really are considered tacky.
Anonymous
What fresh hell place is that? And I would then assume honeymoon registries are equally tacky so everyone must register for 7 deviled egg trays?
If they already just registered for cash, a check is not inappropriate.
Anonymous
Most of America?
Anonymous
False.
X
Sorry. Asking for money is tacky. Even asking for gifts is tacky. That’s why you’re not supposed to list where you’re registered on any invitation. If someone asks, you can mention it.
Honeymoon registries that involve activities or locations are okay, I think. A friend of mine had one that listed various activites for his honeymoon trip to Vietnam like dinner at such and such place, boat trip to another location, etc. That way you feel like you’re giving a gift and not just handing over money. But I would never write a check for anything. Not even as a gift to one of my nieces or nephews. I like to give meaningful gifts.
Anonymous
Asking for money is tacky. Giving it is not. A honeymoon registry is asking for money.
Anonymous
X: the problem “honeymoon registries” is that a lot of them don’t actually apply your gifted money to the activity you think you’re giving to. The registry writes a check to the couple and takes a cut of the total funds collected. This is why I hate honeymoon registries – they mislead your guests into thinking they’re buying you this great experience when they’re not, and because guests are actually giving a % of their money to the service. I would much rather just cut someone a check if they want a check.
Gail the Goldfish
My mother would be horrified if I gave someone a check as a wedding gift. She’s very Southern. Gift cards are barely even acceptable for birthday/christmas gifts. It’s an old-school Southern thing. Don’t ask me to explain it.
GCA
My mother would be horrified if I turned up at a wedding without cold hard cash in a red packet. We’re Chinese. This comment is here only because the juxtaposition of these cultures amuses me :)
Anonymama
Also amusing to me because my old-school, proper Alabama born grandma would always like clockwork send a check to grandkids for every birthday and Christmas.
Anonymous
It’s not tacky to give a check. It’s tacky to ask for a check.
Anonymous
This.
Daisy
If the couple thinks a honeyfund is not tacky, I promise they won’t think checks are tacky.
Anonymous
I wouldn’t say checks are considered “tacky,” but where I’m from (small town in the Midwest) every couple has a large registry and it is very unusual to give a check as a wedding gift. It took me years, and lots of exposure to other cultures where cash-giving is common, to get comfortable with the idea of giving cash.
Anonattorney
I hate this stuff. If it’s rude not to give a wedding gift, then it can’t be rude to give someone a check instead of a gift. Don’t buy into these stupid rules. The more people that stupidly follow them, the longer they persist.
Anonymous Poser
+1,ooo,ooo w/r/t stupid rules and the persistence thereof
CountC
Yes, just write a check. Although, you know that check is going into the honey fund, so what does it matter really? I agree that honey funds are tacky, but money is money and the B&G get to use the gift however they want.
Anonymous
Just write them a check.
Anonymous
You can give whatever you want to give. I personally think a gift card to a restaurant you know they like is a lot safer than the typical off-registry physical gift that is probably not their taste and is going to clutter up their basement or be re-gifted. We had a traditional registry but we got several restaurant gift cards that we really enjoyed. If you’re not sure where they like to dine, an OpenTable gift card will let them choose from a number of great restaurants (and give them more flexibility – they could have three meals at mid-range restaurants instead of one high-end meal).
That said, the lack of traditional registry is their way of saying they want cash. So if you want to do what will make them the happiest, write them a check.
Scarlett
Open table gift certificates were hands down my favorite wedding gift when I got married. Cosign the absolutely fine to write a check advice though.
Gail the Goldfish
Just note that if you get OpenTable gift cards, once you activate it for a certain restaurant, it has to be used at that restaurant. When I got these for someone as a gift, I just bought smaller multiple giftcards instead of one large one so they could split it up however they wanted.
Anonymous
GC to a nice restaurant is my go-to wedding gift. I’m not sure, though, why that’s different from just giving to their honeyfund. Is your husband OK with a GC?
Other ideas: couple’s membership to a local museum/state parks/garden, alcohol of their choosing, beer/wine of the month club. Just please don’t give people stuff (imho consumables are OK, but ymmv) when they’ve clearly expressed a preference to not be given stuff.
anon
For newlyweds who have lived on their own for awhile, the “registry” becomes less relevant. At 29, I wasn’t going to wait for someone to propose to me before I owned a toaster, nice sheets, or tupperware. I see no point in doing a traditional registry if you have no need for any material goods. If you want to give a gift but don’t like the “honey fund,” I’d go with cash/check, or if you know the couple well, you could try to find something personalized that you know they will love.
Anonymous
If you really believe you need absolutely nothing (and I think that’s silly – you can always upgrade your existing items to higher quality ones), then the appropriate thing to do is to say “No gifts please; we just want the pleasure of your company.” Half the people will probably write you a check anyway, but just because you’re older and have a bunch of stuff doesn’t give you a free pass to ask people for cash.
Anonny
I don’t need anything. As a mid twenties minimalist, I have everything I want and it’s exactly how I want it and very high quality. The idea of getting a bunch of mid-grade stuff I don’t want that will clutter my home just to appease some cultural norm is very stressful.
emeralds
I reject the idea that you should just “upgrade” your stuff. Why should I register for s**t that I neither need nor particularly want, that will have to be manufactured and shipped (impacting the environment), so that my own perfectly good stuff (much of which is better quality than you can buy now–I got all my mom’s pots and pans when she “upgraded,” and she periodically begs for them back because they’re better than the upgrades) will go to Goodwill or more likely, end up in a landfill (impacting the environment)? It’s not sustainable and it’s not necessary for me to play along with your capitalistic wet dream.
Signed, will be giving checks or GCs forever, will almost certainly have no registry and put the word out that I want cash, gives no f**ks because it aligns with my personal, political, and environmental values
Anonymous
The argument in favor of registering for physical gifts is that some people’s love language is gifts. People who are coming to your wedding want to show you that they love you. Some people want to demonstrate their love for you in the form of a physical gift. By having a registry with actual things on it, you are being considerate to those guests who want to give you a thing (because they can pick something from a list rather than hemming and hawing over what to get you) and you are channeling the gift giving desire so that you will get things of at least marginal utility.
Anonymama
There are some people who have wedding gifts that they received decades ago, that they still use and treasure and that make them feel a connection to whoever gave that item to them every time they use it. It also can make people feel a tangible sense of being supported by their community in a personal way. For people who are really into giving physical wedding gifts, it’s really not about consumerism, but about having a tangible reminder of family and friends. (I mean, i’d just as soon give/receive cash, which is common in my culture, but I appreciate the motivations of those who gave actual gifts, even if they were not to my personal taste. And I was young/poor enough when I got married to usually appreciate the actual gift itself too.)
Anonymous
Fine, then you say no gifts or let people know some charities you love so they can make a charitable contribution in your name. It’s tacky to ask for cold hard cash, no matter how minimalist your lifestyle is.
Anonymous
Agreed. I set up my kitchen in my late 20s with high quality appliances, pots, pans, knives, dishes, etc. Over the years, I have wanted exactly 2 things for my kitchen: a larger skillet and a fancy dutch oven. My fiance’s mother set him up years ago with a kitchen she envies–he already has the skillet I want.
What do I register for? A $250 dutch oven? I’m thinking of registering for extra sheets, towels (kitchen and bath), and replacement hamper. Maybe a few tools for my tool box to replace some of the tools that haven’t aged well: magnetic screw driver, tape measure, power drill (but SO has an awesome drill that’ll last another 30 years). The cats might register for a fancy cat tree but I usually just re-carpet the old one. Is it tacky to register for electronics like a laptop or nest thermostat?
NYtoCO
Don’t register for a laptop, do register for a Nest
BB
My problem with these funds is not really the principle, it’s the fact that I then have to worry over how much to give! Is $100 enough? What if everyone else is giving $500+? Etc. Etc. At least with an actual gift registry, there’s sort of guardrails (obviously, there’s always the one $5 potato peeler, but then you aggregate that with the $100 dish sets and you kind of know what the normal amount is).
Ugh.
Anonymous
Ummm what? You give what you want, stuff registry, cash registry, or no registry.
Anonymous
Every registry I’ve ever seen has items ranging from less than $10 to more than $500. Lots of people buy multiple items; lots of people go in with friends to buy one really expensive item. I honestly have no clue how a traditional registry gives you any idea what other people are spending.
bridget
I think she’s saying that if a registry has $100 dish sets that are being bought, but the KitchenAid mixer is not, you’re probably okay spending $100.
My own affinity for registries is that you can eyeball the median price of the gifts and get something that won’t come off as stingy. Low on cash and there’s a lot of $10 items and a $40 vase? Bam, vase bought, and you don’t look cheap.
Recent Bride
Um, I’m a recent bride (married last month). We did not register for gifts. We received gifts, gift cards, cash, and checks. Some people gave us multiple hundreds of dollars. Some people gave us $50. Some people made us gifts (which was SUPER meaningful). Some people didn’t give us a gift (and we did not care – we were thrilled that they’d travelled to a relatively-expensive city to attend our wedding).
No one looked “cheap” or “stingy”. If a bride & groom thinks you look cheap and stingy b/c of your gift, then the problem isn’t with the gift – it’s that the couple sucks.
Anonattorney
YES. This. F*** this “tacky” crap. The people who get bothered by these things are the problem–not the gift-giver.
Meg Murry
Just a check. But address it to Bride MaidenLastName OR Groom Hislast. We got checks addressed to “Bride and Groom HisLast” that we received in the mail before the wedding, but the bank wouldn’t let us deposit them because I didn’t have any ID that had my new married name on it yet, and he couldn’t just sign them because of the “and”. Technically, if we had just signed them and shoved them in the ATM to deposit, I doubt anyone would have really cared, but we asked the teller, which called her attention to it.
http://budgeting.thenest.com/proper-way-make-out-check-newly-married-couple-30727.html
lost academic
This is why I put in cash instead, and plus, I don’t have to worry about when/if a check will get cashed.
Anonymous
Please don’t bring cash to the wedding. It’s not uncommon for the card box to get stolen. If you wrote a check, at least you can cancel it.
Anonymous
Yeah, putting actual cash in an envelope and leaving it on a gift table is beyond idiotic. Just make the check out to “bride’s name OR groom’s name.” Nobody changes their name instantly, so there’s no way they won’t be able to cash a check made out to their original names, even if one or both of them plans to eventually change their name.
Anonymous
Yes! I also got one check made out to only MyFirst HisLast and I wasn’t changing my name. I couldn’t cash it because that wasn’t my last name and he couldn’t cash it because his first name wasn’t on it. Huuuuge hassle. “[Bride’s Pre-Marriage Name] OR [Groom’s Pre-Marriage Name]” is definitely the best way to go.
Edna Mazur
I always address checks to couples with “OR” in really big letters. Good point in using maiden name as I do know she is changing but that always takes awhile.
Recent Bride
Definitely OR. I got married on a Saturday and my name change (SS, DL, banks, etc) was complete within a week. So if we’d received any checks with exclusively my maiden name on them, that would have been an issue.
Edna Mazur
Wow, I think getting the official marriage certificate took at least two weeks to arrive. That being said, eight years later and my library card is still in my maiden name…
Anonymous
You are banking with the wrong institution if they gave you grief over this–or they have a teller that should be terminated. Either way, this is absurd.
HSAL
Yeah, I had zero problems immediately depositing checks that were made to Mr & Mrs HSAL before I changed my name.
lucy stone
This! We got checks made out to all possible name combinations (we both kept our names), such as MyFirst HisLast, HisFirst My Last, Mr. and Mrs. HisFirst MyLast, His First and My First HisLast, and a few to the merged name all our friends call us that isn’t our legal name (think Robama). The bank congratulated us on our marriage and sent us a card! My husband cashed them all without me there, no issues.
Edna Mazur
Sounds like either should work. Thing is, if they just had no registry, my husband would have no problem with giving them cash, but since they essentially asked for cash (they don’t know where the honey moon is yet, they set it up with TBD) he is being contrary and doesn’t want to do so.
Other relatives I know just bought them things they think they’d like but there is no way I’m doing that. Maybe I’ll conveniently forget until just before, then I can oops, better just write a check.
emeralds
Does your husband realize how ridiculous he’s being?
Edna Mazur
He actually does, he has other issues with this wedding that are somewhat legit that i’m not going into and we both realize they are manifesting this way. Normally, he really doesn’t care, at all.
Sydney Bristow
We received a very generous gift certificate to a super nice restaurant as a wedding gift. It was way too generous of them. I feel so bad that we haven’t used it. The restaurant is just so far outside of the type of cuisine we like and a much fancier environment than we’re used to that we just haven’t made it happen yet. We sent a thank you note right away saying we hadn’t had a chance to use it yet.
So I’d recommend knowing that they like that specific restaurant or at least the type of food if you go that route.
Scarlett
You’d think I work for open table based on my comment above, but this is why their gift certificates are great, you can use them at almost all of the restaurants that book through their site so the receiver picks where to go. It’s become my go-to wedding gift since I loved it and I’m often last to the registry and prefer not to give the only remaining dishtowel.
Edna Mazur
Good point. Last minute check it is.
Recent Bride
As someone who didn’t register, and has always been perfectly happy gifting the couple whatever they prefer (a toaster, a massage during their honeymoon spa visit, money) –
Why is registering for gifts not tacky but not-registering and asking for cash or honeymoon contributions tacky? Either way, the couple is saying “I’d like X”…so why is one X okay but the other not?
And I don’t subscribe to the whole “that’s why you don’t list where you’re registered on your invite…you only mention it if asked” BS – because it’s still registering and asking for specific things, being cagey about it doesn’t change that. And I think there is NOTHING wrong with registering if that’s what you want to do. I’m just confused as to why there appears to be this huge division between registering for household goods (cool) and registering for a honeymoon experience (pearl clutching) or, god forbid, saying you’d prefer a monetary gift. In my book, I can get behind saying ALL are tacky (b/c expressing a preference re: a gift) or NONE are tacky, but I don’t get the hairsplitting.
X
http://emilypost.com/advice/vermont-vows-the-registry/
Recent Bride
Thanks but this doesn’t actually answer my question. Why do people think that requesting specific gifts is not tacky, but requesting honeymoon contributions or cash is tacky? Either way, the couple is saying “I’d like X”. Why is some X acceptable but not others?
Anonymous
Because I don’t need a list to tell me the color or pattern of cash you want.
Anon
Because European traditions are random. And judgy.
Signed, Asian person whose tradition has absolutely no problem with just giving the damn cash.
X
Technically, expecting gifts is inappropriate, but people want to give gifts. And because of that, you want them to give you something that works with your decor and style. Originally, it was housewares because couples were just starting out. Now most people have housewares because they’re older when they get married.
http://emilypost.com/2010/03/cash-concern-how-to-ask-for-cash-as-a-wedding-gift/
But asking for cash is different because it has a connotation of “we can’t afford the lifestyle we want,” which seems tacky. Like I’ll give you a blender or cocktail glasses and if I’m going to your wedding, I probably know you well enough to know you’ll like these awesome glasses with the anchor motif, but why am I paying for you to travel to Vietnam when I’d just as soon travel there myself? Or, even worse, why am I giving you money to pay for this super fancy wedding when maybe you should have scaled back and just served beer and wine? I tend to think you should earn your money or get it from family.
Recent Bride
So what is the connotation for people who don’t register (like myself)? We received cash and checks (in addition to gifts and gift cards) but we didn’t ask for anything and point-blank told people who asked what to give us that gifts were not at all expected and we had no suggestions. Are we tacky? We can certainly afford our lifestyle, and paid for our wedding.
Anonymous
No, that’s fine. Registering for cash is rude. Graciously accepting it is fine.
Anonypotamous
Yeah, but this never works because the generation that things registering for cash is tacky is the same generation that will balk at giving cash. They then give the marrying couple even more useless things (ugly lamps, anyone). The root problem is the same. This is a tradition that values materiality more than practicality.
X
There is no connotation for you. You’re acting appropriately. I would probably give you Tervis tumblers with your monogram or something similar or donate to a charity of your choosing. Because I cannot go to a party or dinner or cocktails at someone’s house without bringing something…
cash is king
I don’t know. I grew up in blue collar white protestant christian small town family (east coast, not southern) where it was common to register at Target or Bed Bath Beyond. You didn’t give or request cash… not that people would be horrified if you gave it, per se, but it was just uncomfortable. Felt… impersonal, maybe? But I’m married to a south asian family and the culture is that you give cash. People even put “no boxed gifts” on wedding invites (even though its superfluous because I’ve never seen an asian person attempt to bring a boxed gift to an asian wedding). I have completely adopted this view. Now I give cash readily and happily. It’s just so much easier for both giver and receiver. But maybe I’m just accustomed now to people handing me envelopes of cash. There are worse things in the world.
lawsuited
A cheque is even better than honeyfund, because honeyfund doesn’t get a cut of money you give directly to the couple.
getting married in a month
I’m from the deep south and am registered for 3 (yes, 3!?!) china patterns ranging from casual to formal. It’s the norm there. I break into hives thinking of all the “stuff” we’ll acquire. Our families are super traditional and would die before letting us register for money, honeyfund, gift cards.. There’s no way we could register at Target or another chain store – the horror! All I really want is gift cards for Home Depot/Amazon/grocery stores. Maybe an espresso machine.
Pregnant Paralegal
I am a paralegal, working remotely and therefore hourly (I was full-time/salary when I worked in the office). I only get paid for the hours I work, no PTO or sick time. I maintain firm health insurance if I work 30 hrs/week.
Now I’m pregnant. Any advice for asking about maternity leave? I don’t really have any negotiating power and am VERY scared that they’ll phase me out after I’m unavailable for a month or so. Parental leave for full-time employees is from 4-8 weeks, depending on years of service.
I could scrape by on unpaid leave, but don’t want to lose my health coverage. The health insurance, which I previously had to push for, turned into a lot of back and forth between HR, my main attorney and me.
What is a short but realistic maternity leave, as in when can I work again without major sleep deprivation?
Anonymous
If you’re in the US and you’ve worked for your firm for more than 12 months, it’s very likely your job and health insurance benefits are protected by FMLA.
Anon
Which means they can’t cancel your coverage during the time period you are out on FMLA (though they could make you pay for it)
Delta Dawn
Have you worked there more than a year, and does your firm have more than 50 employees? If so, you are entitled to up to 12 weeks of UNPAID leave under the Family Medical Leave Act. You should not lose your health coverage during that time (but need to make sure your HR person understands that if they don’t work with FMLA a lot). If you’re getting by on only FMLA, I would not take all 12 weeks, because the 12 weeks have to last you all year, and something else may come up (new baby gets sick, etc.).
12 weeks of paid leave is considered generous in America– since you say full time employees at your firm get 4-8, that’s probably the max you can expect. You said its based on years of service. If they apply the same policy to you as an hourly employee, how many weeks would you get?
A short but realistic maternity leave is 8 weeks. A short but have-to-do-it-and-can-probably-survive maternity leave is 6 weeks. And if you have a C-section, most doctors will tell you not to go back to work for six weeks to heal from the surgery. Four weeks would be very, very difficult. Most babies are still waking up several times per night to eat at four weeks. I do remember thinking at 8 weeks that I could have functioned at work by that point– but before 8 weeks, I could not have.
Can you look at the policy that governs parental leave for full time employees? Do they not have that similarly codified anywhere for part time employees? If not, I would approach the conversation as though the full time policy applies to you. If it is based on years of service, and you get, say 5 weeks based on that, I would talk to HR as though that is what you expect. If it’s not right, I’d make them correct me rather than suggesting myself that I’m not entitled to it.
Anonymous
Working again without major sleep deprivation: when your child goes to college.
Working again: if you have a not-complicated delivery (non-C-section), you should be able to work as soon as you want. 6 weeks is typical short term disability coverage for a “regular” delivery.
Plenty of women have babies during law/graduate school and get back to classes in just a couple of weeks (or, more accurately, less than 2 weeks).
Jen
Really? I have an almost 3 year old and we felt totally “normal” by the 1-year mark. She slept a full night starting around 6-7 months and prior to that it was just one wake-up (that often was 5:45am which I made work as a getting-up time for me, while putting her back to bed).
OP, If you are lucky and have an easy baby, 6 weeks is a do-able leave. If you have extensive support, you could do 4. Formula feeding or having enough breast milk saved up and the baby trained to accept a bottle (where someone other than you can feed the baby in the middle of the night) will make 4 weeks possible. Does the baby’s father play into this? Perhaps he cl(or another support person) can take PTO and allow you to head back at 4 weeks.
Do know that most daycares won’t accept a child <6 weeks (some are 8-10 weeks), and you'll likely have many pediatrician appointments in those early weeks.
Anonymous
When could I have worked again after delivering? Well, I was answering emails and on conference calls 3 days after (as soon as I got home from the hospital). For me, the first two weeks were actually some of the best time to work, as baby slept a lot during the day and the crying bouts hadn’t really started yet. When is it reasonable? I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that you could probably go back when needed, though I will say that the 4-6 week time frame was some of the worst for me – sleep deprivation had caught up, baby was awake more and cried more, but wasn’t quite cute and fun. If I had to pick, I’d try and wait until 6. All of this said, since you work at home, are you planning to bill 30 hours with a newborn at home with you without a nanny or other care giver? To me that sounds impossible and I would be really bothered by my paralegal if she did that.
Anon
I went back to work after having my second child at 6 weeks. It was hard, but doable. My husband was also extremely helpful and that make it easier (he did EVERYTHING at home–made dinner, did laundry, washed pump parts, packed my bag for me in the morning, made my breakfast and lunch, so that once I got home I could spend that time with the baby and resting.)
If you are working from home and have someone to care for the baby while you are working, then I think it is realistic to start working again after 4 weeks. Maybe even 3 assuming you have a normal, uncomplicated delivery and you have help with household stuff so when you are not working you can rest and be with baby. It won’t be easy, but I think it would be doable.
pound
I recognize this is a comment that no one can really do anything about, but I just have to say it again: I am shocked by the lack of maternity benefits available in the US. I am Canadian. Most companies here have 6 MONTHS paid mat leave, followed by 6 months of either unpaid or partially paid leave. As this lack of maternity benefits takes place in such wealthy country, it seems unjust and disrespectful to mothers.
Baltimore Recs?
Hi everyone. I’m always impressed by the travel recs given on this site and figured I’d ask for one of my own. Does anyone have any recs for places to go in downtown Baltimore? My BF and I are going to the inner harbor this weekend, but I’m bored of our usual go to the aquarium then walk around harbor place. I’d like to do some exploring instead and was wondering if anyone has any hidden gems or must sees around the area. Thanks!
Munich leisure wear
If you are truly bored, why not go to Annapolis? Or St. Michael’s?
Daisy
Fells Point! Lots of little shops and restaurants, and a great view of the harbor. You could walk from the Inner Harbor via Harbor East. It’s a little bit of a walk between Harbor East and Fells, but on a nice sunny day it’s great! Also, that walk is perfectly safe – don’t let people tell you otherwise. There’s not a lot of development between Fells and Harbor East, but there is nothing wrong with that walk at all (just a couple of blocks). Hug the waterfront while doing that walk, and you’ll have a great time!
Anonymous
Max’s Tavern if you like beer. They have something like 100 taps and a bigger bottle list. The food is pretty decent too.
Anonymous
It’s going to be 100 degrees this weekend. You cray?
Baltimore Recs?
No. I just moved back from Texas so the 100 degree heat doesn’t bother me. Plus my boyfriend wants to hunt for Pokemon which I don’t mind, but I dislike the mindless wandering.
Anonypotamous
LOL! Love.
anon
I think the Orioles are at home this weekend. I’d hit up Camden Yards. Even if you don’t like baseball, it’s a gorgeous ballpark. There are lots of restaurants and stuff in the downtown neighborhoods- Fells Point, Mt. Vernon, and Federal Hill are walkable from the harbor (in opposite directions). Have you been to the Visionary Art Museum?
ALX emily
The visionary art museum is very interesting!
Baltimore Recs?
I didn’t realize they were home this weekend. I’ll look into a game. I grew up in the suburbs so I’ve been to the ballpark for class field trips. Are there any specific restaurants you recommend in any of those neighborhoods? I’m terrible at picking a restaurant on the fly. It makes me really anxious for some reason.
anon
I wouldn’t pick on the fly- check out yelp ahead of time. You can do brunch at Little Havana (or tons of places in Federal Hill) before the Sunday day game (oh god, seats in the shade though!). For dinner hour, I like Brewer’s Art, Tio Pepe, and the Helmand in Mt Vernon. The Black Olive in Fells Pt (and Pitango gelato is sooo good). Cinghiale in Harbor East. Thai Arroy in Fed Hill (which was BYOB last time I was there). If you want to drive out from the harbor a bit, Woodberry Kitchen is good and trendy though not my personal cup of tea for idiosyncratic reasons (I don’t like the seating arrangements) and I always enjoy the Ambassador. There are a ton of choices depending on your taste and budget. I moved out of the city a few years ago so I’m sure I’m missing some newer stuff.
If you haven’t been to the ballpark since you were a kid, that would be my first choice. The food and beer selection has dramatically improved in recent years and the Saturday night game might actually be pleasant, weather-wise. Bleacher seats for best value (for night game only though, no shade).Maybe go to the AVAM if you haven’t been, then the orioles game.
This is all making me miss Baltimore. Currently scheming to move back up that way (from the DC burbs). I do agree with the other poster who suggested Annapolis as a potential alternative as well.
anon
oh and Pazo is another trendy downtown option. It’s small plates/tapas.
Snick
The American Visionary Art Museum is great and air conditioned. And/or take a harbor cruise.
Wildkitten
Check the behind-the-scenes tours at the Baltimore Aquarium.
Munich leisure wear
I am going to Munich! For work, but I will have an extra day to kick around. WHAT DO I WEAR?! I imagine that it will be like Asheville, but much cooler (temperature-wise) and perhaps a bit more chic? I like to walk and walk and walk (I doubt I will be able to pull of any sort of day hike) and people watch.
[Also, for work, I am thinking block heels or wedges b/c skinny heels seem to be good only for walking in giant American office buildings and not actual sidewalks.]
NOLA
Munich is definitely hipper than the Austrian cities I visited. Much more black. I can contact In-house Europe and ask her to weigh in. She lives there.
NOLA
Oh, and I should say that I was there in the fall, but you’re right that block heels or wedges would be better. I wore funky combat boots there (Steve Madden Liliana, if you’re curious).
In-House Europe
You rang? ;) it’s either bloody boiling or cold and rainy so first thing – layers! I’d do a knee length skirt, comfy walking shoes that aren’t running shoes (unless you don’t care about being id’ed as American) and a tank top, with a cardi and/or rain jacket. Muncheners can be very chic but you see all types, so I wouldn’t stress too much about standing out. Oh and re the work shoes – that is the area that German women aren’t as chic and tend to wear more comfortable shoes. I wear stilettos but I’m the minority. Block heel never went out here and wedges are popular too.
Anon
My partner is doing badly at work. He is a attorney, but not in big law. He’s been in law about 8 years, but got a late start and is 38. He started in big law, had a great career for a few years, was laid during a mass cut, and is now a senior associate at a small firm. He was unemployed for almost a year, so is so insecure about losing his job. He’s been at this job a little over a year and the hours are really decent (<50). He doesn't want to job hunt so soon after starting.
Yesterday morning, one partner told him a project he had worked on was a "major waste of the Firm's time, and that it would hurt everyone's compensation."
In the evening, another partner said "why do you keep disappointing me?" It sounded like this was in response to a relatively minor out-of-his-control delay.
I'm not in law, but is this kind of feedback common? He is so anxious about getting fired. How can I support him? What would you want your partner to do? Things would be fine if he got fired. Our total expenses are roughly 1/2 of my take-home pay, we have no kids, good savings, etc. I have tried to remind him of this, but it doesn't seem to help.
He has medicated ADD and minor depression. Is in therapy and neither is too bad. Sometimes I get frustrated, because I don't know that he is trying as hard as he could – it sounds like he is just doing the bare minimum. I never voice this. He's brilliant and has succeeded in other roles. But he doesn't like his job or law in general. He has a lot of hobbies and a happy home life – he considers his job to be just a job. I just want him to be happy and relaxed. But he comes home every night anxious and distracted.
Anonymous
He should look for a new job. Not necessarily because his partners seem disappointed with his work, but because “he comes home every night anxious and distracted.” He enjoyed Big Law, so it doesn’t sound like he hates being a lawyer. He seems to really dislike his current job and although I can’t say from the facts given whether he’s danger of losing his job (some partners just like to gripe about everything their associates do), it doesn’t sound like he has a bright future there. Being at one job for only a year is not that big a deal, especially if he has some longer term positions on his resume. And job hunting can take a while, so he may end being in this position close to two years before he leaves. I would definitely start looking now if I was him.
Amelia Bedelia
I mean this with as much love as an internet stranger can convey: it sounds as if he is not cut out for the practice of law. He should take some time and find a different career, especially if you will support him through the transition. He sounds perilously close to being fired.
ezt
I wouldn’t go this far, especially if he enjoyed his years as a junior associate. It sounds like he is maybe not cut out for FIRM life. But there are many, many non-firm law jobs, especially if a pay cut isn’t a huge problem. I’m a government lawyer (former Biglaw) – the people in my office are mostly passionate about our jobs (so not just “it’s a job”), it’s a high-volume/fast-paced practice, but the pressure is just SO much less. It’s a combination of several things – less hierarchical, less competitive, less expectation of attrition – that just makes it so much more pleasant for someone who doesn’t love the adrenaline-rush aspect of law firm life (which it sounds like your partner does not). My office is filled with former Biglaw mid to senior level associates. I think it’s definitely worth a shot to try a non-firm law job before giving up on law.
Bee
This is really unfair. Even if someone is a bad associate, you don’t speak to them the way OP describes. That’s terrible management. It’s a lot more likely that these partners are awful and the firm culture isn’t a fit for OP’s husband.
I know we all like to think we’re super smart here, but the practice of law just isn’t that hard. There are tons of different practice areas that are good for different skill sets. Saying that someone “isn’t cut out for the practice of law” even if you’ve worked with them is condescending, short-sighted, and very likely untrue.
Anonymous
I think saying he’s not cut out for the practice of law or that he’s perilously close to being fired are huge logical leaps. I worked with partners who routinely said things like this to me and I got good to excellent reviews and raises every year. Some people just enjoy being a$$holes to their subordinates. It doesn’t mean the employee is actually doing a bad job. Also, even assuming he’s not cut out for private practice doesn’t mean he’s not cut out for the practice of law. There is a whole universe of law jobs that are not in a law firm. She said he enjoyed working in Big Law and did well there, so it seems like a huge leap to proclaim that because he’s in one job that’s not working out the problem is him and he’s not cut out for law.
Anon
I mean it could be either — bad partners/bad guidance from them or your boyfriend just not getting it and doing the work well. Hard to tell from your description. Thing is — most partners whether biglaw or not — have VERY little patience with senior associates. As the senior associate, you are the one that gets ALL the blame for anything that goes wrong. The partners aren’t going to take the blame; and they aren’t going to put it on a 1st yr or a 4th yr who can say — I didn’t understand, I haven’t ever done this before. As a senior, the expectation is you HAVE done this before and know EXACTLY what to do and how to do it; and if you don’t, you ask cogent questions of the partner and/or client to get it done PERFECTLY. Truth be told, MOST seniors don’t have it in them. I don’t see someone being successful in law esp in a law firm if his attitude is – a job is a job. He needs to take ownership and make it a lifestyle of sorts (not going overboard but he needs to realize that everything on a case needs to run perfect and if that means he needs to sacrifice sometimes to make it happen, then he needs to). If he’s finding that he doesn’t want to/can’t bring himself to do it bc he just dislikes it — why not start thinking of a transition to something that isn’t firm practice?
Anonymous
It’s hard to say, since the info is coming thru so many layers, but from what you’ve described, I’d say it’s safe to say your BF likely doesn’t have a future at his current firm. He may be able to cut it in law, but to have two partners upset about what sounds like two different projects at one time (and it doesn’t sound like these are outliers), he’s likely burned his bridges. Esp. at a firm of 50. I’d probably start considering my options/dust off my resume if I were him.
stripes
I had a somewhat similar experience at my old firm, although I was much more junior. It was my first job back after a lay-off (that I can honestly say wasn’t my fault, it was the recession). It was a smallish firm and the partners were really hard to read. I am not generally an anxious person, but I was in rough shape there. I felt like I was working completely blind until someone was unhappy, when he would then unload on me like I should have read his mind. It was a bad match. Ultimately, I did get quiet fired, found another job at a big firm, where I have been exceeding expectations ever since.
It’s harder to make transitions as you get more senior. It is also nearly impossible to get an accurate sense of how a firm treats its associates during the interview process unless your best friend works there and can tell you straight up. I think he should look for non-law firm jobs. If my current job hadn’t worked out, I was preparing to figure out something else to do. It’s not worth your sanity.
Mindy
Wanted to chime in to add that maybe he’s at my old small firm.
The partners were terrible and made up reasons to berate me. Like telling me something was spelled wrong when it wasn’t, so I had the partner look it up in front of me and he had to admit that he was wrong.
Having started there during the recession was a blow (and it gave me anxiety and depression that I had not had before) but I lateraled to biglaw and am super happy and have gotten GREAT feedback.
bridget
Any chance of getting him to talk to a career counselor? There are probably some great ones for lawyers who can discuss traditional law options, JD preferred, and “to hell with being a lawyer; I’m opening up a cupcake shop” options.
Maybe also some financial planning, if you haven’t done that already?
To the specific question: I tend to think that it’s almost always better to proactively move on (or to quit) than to be fired, for both professional and psychological reasons.
Sydney Bristow
I got a cute top from the Limited this week. It’s not currently on sale but it was so I’d bet it will be again soon. I’m about a size 18 and busty and the XXL fits great. The green is really vibrant, which I love. It’s perfect for my pencil skirt, top, cardigan uniform. Link in reply.
Sydney Bristow
Here it is. It’s $40 right now but was on sale for 60% off earlier. Plus The Limited is on ShopRunner. Im planning to buy another color when it’s back on sale. http://tinyurl.com/jpeuwxr
Anonymous bc it's ridiculous
So, I know it will sound very nuts… but I have a deep fear of alligators. My extended family has scheduled out annual family reunion in Fort Myers at a hyatt resort. As best I can google, I don’t think alligators would be an issue but this is just a deep seated fear and as far as falling down the crazy Florida Alligator stories, I have done that this morning.
Can anyone who lives in the neighborhood comment and reassure me that there aren’t any?
KT
Well…I can’t lie to you…if you’re in Florida, there are gators. There just are. If there is a lake/retention pond, etc, it’s safe to say there are gators.
That said, I’m assuming you’re not wading in the river or lakes and will be sticking to the pool.
If you’re boating or fishing, they don’t leap into boats, they’re pretty chill.
Where I am, there’s gators everywhere. I pass one big guy basking every morning when I walk my dog. Locals don’t pay them any mind. As long as you leave them be and give them their space, you’re fine.
KT
And if you’re on the beach–gators don’t like salt water and only like freshwater, so you’re fine :)
Anonymous bc it's ridiculous
OK. This is exactly what I needed to know. We have a few days at Hyatt Coconut point and then were headed to Sanibel. Both which look like they have no ponds etc. So I think I will be OK.
Blonde Lawyer
I visit a friend in Fort Meyers and Sanibel and I have seen alligators. You usually know when you might see one though because there are big “don’t feed the gators” signs. I believe we saw some at an outlet mall hanging out on the lawn. I think we also saw some at a nature preserve/bike path type place. I don’t think we ever saw any that we weren’t expecting to see.
KT
Definitely some in Sanibel. If there are any drainage ditches, sewer deposits, swampy land (which you know, Florida), they’re there.
Stay on paths, don’t wander into the swamp, stay away from freshwater bodies, and definitely don’t go wading in the evening and you’re fine.
The Nebraska thing was a perfect storm of bad events: workers had been feeding gators, it was dusk (prime feeding time for gators and when they’re most active), and a very small child in a very green/murky area of the lake–it was truly a horrible, but freak thing.
Most gators, even very large ones, are afraid of people and will retreat quickly. When they stop retreating, that’s when they get reported and hauled away
JayJay
Agreed. I grew up in Florida. Assume all bodies of fresh water have gators in them. Don’t go near the edge. Gators don’t stray too far from the water (they sun on the banks), so it’s not like you’ll find them roaming the city (or chill out in your pool…).
Gail the Goldfish
Yep. Check the pool before you get in–I’ve seen little alligators get in them before. And we didn’t have alligators where I was growing up, but my mom always made us check the pool for water moccasins before getting in (never actually saw any…)
Leatty
I live in Florida, and have an irrational fear of alligators (snakes and sharks too). I refuse to go swimming or tubing in freshwater, but I dont let it otherwise interfere with me enjoying our beautiful scenery.
Most freshwater bodies of water (lakes, canals, rivers, retention ponds) have gators in them. Don’t go swimming in the water (especially between dusk and dawn). Dont walk your dog or small children near the water. Otherwise you will be fine. You can kayak, canoe, etc. without being bothered by them. If you see one, leave it alone, and it will leave you alone.
Anon
Take a lesson from that poor Nebraska family at Disney recently. Do NOT go in any fresh water — lakes, man made — whatever; and even with a pool, look at it before you get in. Particularly don’t go in closer to dark. Now granted you’re an adult and not a 2 yr old so an alligator couldn’t drag you away, but if you’re worried — those are the basics.
Edna Mazur
If it’s nuts then I’m right there nuts with you but this mid-western gal is terrified of alligators. Even in the zoo I hold my kiddos tight and power walk past them. No advice, but I don’t think I could vacation in Florida for that reason.
Blonde Lawyer
Avoid Kiawah resort in SC too! They are all over the golf course.
Anonymous bc it's ridiculous
Have you heard anything about the Hyatt Coconut Point? I called over and the man who answered replied, Maam it’s Florida… chuckle chuckle. JUST TELL ME IF YOU HAVE SEEN ANY ON THE PROPERTY.
Blonde Lawyer
I haven’t heard anything about it.
Edna Mazur
Oh dear.
KT
Well, it’s close to the beach, so it’s not like it will be a haven—but Bonita Springs isn’t far, so it is possible one might wonder its way over–the reason why he probably couldn’t truthfully answer you is that you often DONT see them, but in Florida, it’s safe to say they’re somewhere nearby.
During the day, they might come out to bask, but for the most part, they hide or submerge. They really only come out late at night or very early in the morning–so he probably hasn’t seen them, but that doesn’t mean they’re not there.
Seriously, the gator does not want to deal with you. Walking around the resort, you’re fine. Just don’t wade into retention ponds or lakes; stick to the pool or the ocean. During the day, the gator just wants to nap. If you see one, he’s going to run away.
We have a big 16′ guy on the local golf course who is our mascot. The residents are fiercely protective of him. We all work together to keep tourists away, since they always try to feed him or get close for photos—we don’t want him used to people, because then the Wildlife commission will take him away :(
The locals play golf around him. If he’s too close to the hole, they skip that one. Otherwise, he just chills out, sleeps on the course, then wades into the ponds.
Anonymous
I hate to break it to you but there is a picture of a gator sunning himself on the Coconut Point Tripadvisor page. As the guy said, it’s Florida. Just leave them alone and they will leave you alone. And get some Xanax.
RNC
I hate to break it to you but there is a picture of a gator sunning himself on the Coconut Point Tripadvisor page. As the guy said, it’s Florida. Just leave them alone and they will leave you alone. And get some Xanax.
Anonymous
My thoughts are clearly articulated by Jon Stewart: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNiqpBNE9ik
Never too many shoes
I miss him so much. Trevor Noah is just awful.
Anonymous
Agree. Samantha Bee 4lyfe
Anonymous
I can’t stand Trevor Noah and all my real life friends love him so I’m glad to hear someone else say he’s awful!
Anon
With her fake speech yesterday (bc no way do I believe that Trump Corp is sooo equal and supportive for women — real estate development in NYC is VERY VERY male dominated and bro culture), I can see why she and Chelsea are friends. I think she does believe the things she was saying; it’s just that her father doesn’t and he’d be the president not her.
Anon
Well, side note, as someone that went to college with Chelsea, I can assure you that she’s a huge social climber, so her friendship with Ivanka makes sense. Chelsea dumped all of her friends that stood by her through her father’s troubles (Monica Lewinsky broke our freshman year) and picked a whole new group of cooler friends for senior year. It was super-rotten. She’s not nice.
I’d imagine Ivanka and Chelsea have stuff in common–lots of money, they’re smart, they have famous parents. It’s not that surprising.
I refuse to excuse Ivanka for her father’s hateful positions. There’s supporting your dad and then there’s masterminding and shepherding evil. She’s more in the latter camp, in my mind.
Anonymous
Eye roll. Oh no, the abject horror of someone getting a fresh start of friends in college. Must be Satan.
Anonymous
Why would you have to ‘stand by her’? Kind of a strange way to refer to it.
Her dad cheated on her mom – isn’t it just being a decent person/good friend to continue a friendship with someone who is suffering from something awful that they are blameless for?
Whatever she did later on, talking about ‘standing by’ someone when their parents had marital problems makes it look like not ‘standing by’ your friend was a possibility.
Anon
PP who said that Ivanka and Chelsea are friends. I’m not claiming that Chelsea is the nicest person on earth; of course she’s a climber, I mean look who raised her?! I went to college with Chelsea’s HS BFF — who remained her BFF as they were maid of honor in each others’ weddings; one of the rudest people at a school that has a fair number of snobby people so that attitude doesn’t shock you. So that’s just a window on how Chelsea and Ivanka are — that kind of money and attention just doesn’t make you relatable, no matter who you are and what your party affiliation.
Really?
Eye roll. My freshman year OMGWE’REGONNABEBESTFRIENDFOREVER friends were out of the picture by sophomore year. Sophomore year friends are the friends that lasted.
Anon
Well, she ditched them on the night before the housing lottery her senior year. Lil different. And the timing was particularly bad.
Shopaholic
LOL this makes me laugh because I’m no longer friends with the people I was closest to my freshman year and I don’t think I’m a social climber…
Anon
OMG she was 19-21 yrs old. Maybe she was a bad friend. Maybe she wanted to be seen as cool. Maybe whatever. Maybe there’s a falling out that you don’t know about. Though as personally as you’re taking it, I’m thinking you are one of the friends who was dumped. But even then == Who among us acted perfect in college with zero regrets?
Anonymous
Why does she have to be nice? Who cares?
Anonymous
+ a million
Cc
Omg dude. Are you holding on to housing lottery drama from 15 years ago? This makes it seem like you were desperate to be her friend because she was famous. It’s hilariously petty
Anon
C0-sign.
anon
Co-sign. My friends did this to me, and it was ugly at the time. I’m not holding a grudge b/c 19/20/21.
Anonypotamous
I dunno. One of my BFs knew Ted Cruz from when he was 19/20/21 and he was an a$$ then. I think people don’t really have a problem with her holding that against him even today.
Anon
I am really put off by what she said about women, too. DH and I are conservative, but I am #nevertrump and he is, I guess, #trumpifihaveto. Everything she said about women sounded great, but there is NO WAY that I believe her father (and by the way, why does she never ever say Dad??) espouses the same values.
DH, however, did not know the stats about Trump hiring the first female developer, employing more women at the executive level than men, etc. (And, if those things are true, they are good, I agree). So then DH decided Trump’s sexism is “overstated in the media.” I reminded him that his sexism is not overstated in the media; it’s overstated BY TRUMP HIMSELF. (See, e.g., “men are better than women, but a good woman is better than ten good men,” “blood coming out of her wherever,” “fat pig/disgusting slob/et al,” “would anyone vote for that (face),” “you wouldn’t have your job if you weren’t beautiful,” and those are just the ones that come to mind immediately).
DH recanted and all is well in the Anon Household again… But I’m so frustrated that they are trying to craft this narrative where Ivanka holds him out as a champion for women when there is NO WAY that he would make policy changes to benefit us. Or that he would even want to.
anon a mouse
Genuinely curious: what do you mean by #trumpifihaveto? Is that a never-Hillary vote, or a genuine preference for Trump?
I admit I have a blind spot, but it’s so hard for me to understand how educated people can consider Trump a serious candidate given his inflammatory remarks on foreign policy and the race-baiting speech. (Not to mention a million other things, but those are the most terrifying to me.)
Anon at 11:14
I made that up and didn’t really put a lot of thought into it, but I think you’re right that I mean never-Hillary by saying #trumpifihaveto. Definitely not a geniune preference for Trump. Sort of in the same vein as the 16 unsuccessful R candidates who pledged to support the eventual nominee regardless of whom it was, there are conservative voters who will hold their nose and vote for Trump because he’s the only alternative to Hillary. Of course, there are also conservatives who cannot stomach it and will essentially throw away our votes by not voting at all or voting for Johnson. Which amounts to a vote for Hillary. So, I kind of see where a #trumpifihaveto voter is coming from… even though I still won’t be able to do it myself.
Anonymous
As a non-American, I find it so astounding that there are actual people who are gainfully employed with an education that would consider voting for Trump in any capacity – including because he is the only alternative to Clinton. I had presumed that his appeal was exclusively to unemployed or underemployed white men.
Even if you are a conservative, he has set out no actual policies and does not seem to have any grasp of how governments or international trade/relations work or what the executive functions/authorities are or what domestic policy authorities are federal or state.
Anonymous
Ahhhh yes the classic mistake of assuming Americans don’t revel in pig ignorance. Easy trap to fall into.
anonymous
so are you voting for Hillary then? Honest question, I’m not going to skewer you if not.
Cc
I have yet to meet an educated person who supports him
Anonattorney
But seriously, it’s not just limited to the US. As we saw with Brexit–and with all sorts of other votes in Europe over the past few years–there are tons of scared, conservative, nationalist, anti-immigrant white people who are more than willing to grasp onto a xenophobic, racist, and isolationist narrative. This is just a thing now.
Anonymous
@Cc, seriously!? I might agree that I don’t know anyone who LIKES him, but I know tons of educated people, including people with JDs and PhDs, who are voting for him over Hillary.
Anonymous
Jill Filipovic wrote a great NY Times piece about Trump’s attitudes towards wives versus daughters:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/21/opinion/campaign-stops/why-men-want-to-marry-melanias-and-raise-ivankas.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-right-region®ion=opinion-c-col-right-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-right-region
Anonymous
Her comments on ‘color-blind and gender-neutral’ sounded really ignorant to me. Like the GOP version of what they think equality is. But ignoring the reality that people of color have a very different experience in this country or that ‘gender – neutral’ doesn’t help women in the workforce who need a humane maternity leave policy or a room to pump in.
Plus, Pence is horrible so there’s that too. People talk like Ivanka is going to be the VP or have actual influence on policy/Trump when I fear that Pence will end up running the show from behind the scenes.
Anon at 11:14
I understand that, and that is why I cannot vote for him. But the President will be either Trump or Clinton. And to some, he is the least horrible of two bad candidates. Some will disagree. But there are people who would rather have a President who does not understand government but might sometimes align with their views, as opposed to a President who does understand government and will rarely align with their views.
Anon at 11:57
I’m genuinely confused about the “sometimes align with their views” part though – admittedly I haven’t been exhaustive following American media. But in terms of how it’s presented abroad, he doesn’t seem to have identified any actual policies or views other than (1) build a wall, (2) no Muslims (3) no abortions ? Do people (like employed/educated people) actually support these things? Sorry if I sound ignorant but it’s very confusing to me. I’m used to seeing politicians published detailed policy platforms in multi-page written documents.
Anon at 11:14
Sorry, this was for Anon at 11:57.
Then there is my family
And then there are people that just make no sense. I am no longer on social media for my mental health. I had to give my dad some tech support recently though so I took a few minutes to check in on my extended family via his FB. Bad idea. My Aunt is apparently backing Trump and re-posting rants about immigrants and entitlements. It took every bone in my body to not write back “Dear Auntie, your family has subsisted for years entirely on entitlements. Your eldest son has received every type of public aid his entire life do to his disabling mental illness and alcoholism. He is also gay and married to an immigrant. English is his husbands second language. You idolize your eldest son. Do you not see your hypocrisy? Your husband worked for the state and you two now live off of his public pension and social security. That hospitalization you just had? That was paid for by Medicare. Your daughter’s now ex-husband turned out to be a drug addict that went to prison. Your daughter and his kids received public assistance until they got back on their feet. Didn’t they use your address to go to the better schools? Did you tell her to limit her hours less she lose the assistance? Apparently, entitlements are only entitlements when other people (specifically, non-white people) use them.”
Instead, I signed off and thanked my lucky stars that her and I no longer speak.
Anonymous
It was a fantastic speech (and I say this is as someone who is firmly #WithHer).
O-H-I-O
I thought Ivanka’s speech was great but in no way described her father nor anything aligned with the Republican Party platform. I was hearing #IvankaForPresident–as a Democrat.
Amelia Bedelia
I mean this with as much love as an internet stranger can convey: it sounds as if he is not cut out for the practice of law. He should take some time and find a different career, especially if you will support him through the transition. He sounds perilously close to being fired.
Amelia Bedelia
sorry — meant to be a reply from above question about partner in law.
AnOn
How do you tell if the firm you work for (in law) is healthy? I have pretty clear lines of communication with the partner I work for, but I also sense that he isn’t having the greatest year, so I want to be sensitive to that. But is there any conventional wisdom about high partner to associate ratio? Clients (many are large institutional clients) seem to be continually cutting our rates. I don’t see how this doesn’t translate to fewer lawyers, and the ones that are left being asked to do more and more work to remain profitable at lower rates.
What questions can I ask? What signs should I be looking at? My gut is telling me something might be off, but I don’t want to panic either.
Anonymous
I am assuming you’re an associate and at a firm that doesn’t share a lot of the financials? Honestly, it’s hard to tell in some ways and that’s a many layered question. Pretty much all firms at this point have clients who are demanding lower and lower rates. It’s just the current state of the practice f law. And what you describe is pretty accurate with the attorneys that are there being asked to do more and more in order to keep profits level despite lower rates. If you aren’t able to ask better questions of a junior partner (or even senior associate who seems plugged in) that you trust, I’d probably watch and see what they are doing with law student and first year hiring, whether the equity partners seem happy or panicked (or somewhere in between), and what the firm is doing with staff. Some moves are just made, as I said above, to keep the profits where they are (belt tightening so to speak), more drastic moves can be proof of something.
AnOn
Sadly, I am probably one of the most “plugged in” senior associates. I am on the verge of partnership most likely, and seriously need to consider whether I want to marry this firm, so to speak. You’re right that a lot of it is probably industry wide, but there is also a lack of transparency as you mentioned. Which is why I am curious about some observable hallmarks. Like we have about two to 2.5 times the number of partners as associates. Normal? Sustainable? The person I would usually ask has lost a few clients and has low billables this year so I don’t want it to feel like a personal attack, so I was just curious if there was any other objectively observable metrics to look at.
Anope
My experience was pretty bad. I already have a therapist but really needed referral to a psychiatrist. I was really, really, really struggling with calling every damn professional on my insurance’s website and being told “no we don’t have any appointments available for 3 months” “no he isn’t taking new patients” “no she no longer practices” “no, unless you want to see [guy who has been repeatedly publicly sanctioned]” “no” “no” “no.” With the whole mix of depression symptoms, it was not a pretty experience.
So I finally called the EAP like “ok i need *assistance* can you please help me figure out a way to call people and actually get a damned appointment?” “Well, I would suggest you go to your insurance company’s website and go from there. Try looking on the back of your insurance card.” Completely f-ing useless.
Anope
Well, that was supposed to be in the EAP thread, sorry.
Lizbet
I’m considering retiring to Mexico, as a Big Adventure for 10 years or so. Anyone know anything about Lake Chapala area? Impressions? We have 10 years to plan…
Anon
Yes! I lived in Guadalajara for a year and went to Lake Chapala a few times. The area is gorgeous with year-round beautiful weather.
Chapala is a nice town, and as you probably know Ajijic has a significant expat community. There are always a lot of festivals going on for holidays and saint days in the various towns around the lake, so there’s a strong community feel in the area.
Despite all of these good things, I personally would not want to move there because the area is both sleepy and touristy. To me it’s a perfect day-trip destination. I can see why so many retirees move there, but assuming you’re younger, you might find that it doesn’t offer enough variety.
I sometimes dream about moving to Mexico, and if I did I would move to the Tlaquepaque area of Guadalajara. Tlaquepaque has some of the same charm as Ajijic (art, great food, beautiful plaza), but it also provides convenient access to a major city.
EAP
Can anyone share their experience about going through their company’s employee assistance program for mental health issues, specifically what the interwebs tells me is likely mild/moderate depression/anxiety? Or through their state bar assistance program (or other professional association)? Was it helpful? Or should I just try to work with my PCP (who is proving hard to get an appointment with and I’m not super jazzed about anyway)?
KT
Is there a reason you’re going to go to a PCP first? You can go directly to a psychologist or psychiatrist in most situations (unless your insurance requires a referral).
My former employers’ EAP (very large, Fortune 500 company) was the worst. Very helpful if you were going through an adoption process, looking for elder care, etc, but terrible if you needed real medical care from a professional. They had a lot of support groups, but couldn’t guide me to a good therapist or psychiatrist.
EAP
Was hoping that the PCP could assist with referrals and medication while I am inevitably waiting to get in to see a mental health provider.
ck
I am curious about the responses to this.
I work in health care.
Why would you not meet with a doctor, and instead go to your employer about a possible mental health issue, and diagnose yourself over the internet?
Most doctors are hard to get an appointment these days quickly, but how long do you have to wait? You can also just contact your doctor’s office to ask for a referral to a psychiatrist to save yourself a trip, and be assessed there. Or talk to friends you respect to ask for a referral to their PCP (or psychiatrist/therapist).
What am I missing here?
VA Anon
I used a company’s EAP to find a therapist. The first six visits were free. I continued to see the same person for seven months with the assistance of health insurance. It was a positive experience.
Wildkitten
I used EAP to find a therapist. My insurance paid for the therapy, but the referral to someone who took my insurance was hugely helpful.
A
Canadian in big blue chip company (big bank) in large city and this was my experience: called EAP, got several free appointments then used my employee insurance for others. I actually did a few appointments over the phone, as my boss would not have been great at me disappearing for a few hours a month. Consider it a positive experience
Meg Murry
When I called a former company’s EAP, it really wasn’t that much more helpful than just searching the database of doctors on my insurance company webs!te myself – and I did still have to make the calls myself to ask if they had any available appointments, etc. But I do think they had a relationship with some providers that got you in faster (or got them to take you at all, period, if they weren’t taking new patients), and the first 6 appointments were covered.
I wound up going outside the EAP in order to find somewhere that would set me up with both a therapist (for initial screening/diagnosis) and a psychiatrist (that could prescribe me meds) that was at least somewhat close to my office – there is a severe shortage of psychiatrists in my area, and most of the recommendations from the EAP were for people that could do talk therapy or CBT, but I knew I needed to have meds in the mix as well.
Chicago visit
Visiting Chicago for the first time in late July & early August. Tips re what to wear (sweltering? AC blasting inside most buildings?), eat, see, do? Only easy walking distance from any L/El stop please. Will stay near Chinatown. TIA!!
ChiLaw
Yay! Chicago is the best!!!
I love swimming in the lake. My favorite beach is Hollywood Beach — you’d take the red line north to Bryn Mawr and walk about five blocks to the water. There are ice cream shops along the way, if you need ’em!
Things cool down in the evening and the night life is really fun in the summer. You could walk around Andersonville (same train stop, Bryn Mawr, but walk away from the lake toward Clark, then walk south) for fun bars (Ombra for wine and little snacks, Hopleaf for a killer beer selection and mussels and frites, Jerry’s for more beer and sandwiches, Big Jones has a really great whiskey menu and also punches, and Little Bad Wolf is fun too — oh and then you can go to George’s for more ice cream!).
Other daytime activities I would do would be the Chicago History Museum (see if they’re running any fun tours — I’ve done a neat historical bar/speakeasy tour with them) and the Art Institute, of course. The Loyola Museum of Art has neat shows sometimes, as does the Cultural Center (close to the Art Institute and worth checking out just for the beauty of the building). The Architectural Boat Tours are surprisingly awesome, and kind of (temperature) cool because you’re on the river. It might be a nice way to scope out downtown without getting too damn hot.
Chicago visit
Thanks for these great ideas!
More RNC
Is anyone else a little disheartened by the sudden (apparent, anyway) embracing of the LGBT community by Republicans? Don’t get me wrong, I believe in equality for everyone, but when I watched Peter Thiel proudly declare his sexuality and get a standing ovation and Donald Trump declare to enthusiastic cheers that he will fight for LGBT Americans, my heart hurt. This party is still so backwards when it comes to women and racial and religious minorities, who have been fighting for equality much longer. I’m probably not saying this well and I’m really not trying to offend any LGBT readers or allies, but it was just hard to watch one minority be so enthusiastically embraced while so many other minorities (especially women, Latinos and Muslims) are being treated like flaming dog poo by the same people.
Anonymous
The RNC just voted in the most anti-LGBT+ policy in its history at the Convention. The fact that one person (Thiel) disagrees with that policy doesn’t change it. And nothing Trump says can be trusted.
At the Convention the RNC voted to specifically condemn same sex marriage. They are progressive on nothing.
Anonymous
I believe Trump’s line had something to do with protecting the LGBT community from radical Islamic extremists to prevent another Orlando. Meanwhile, the GOP passes nonsense bathroom bills and endorses “religious freedom” legislation that effectively sanctions discrimination against the LGBT community. To them, gay rights are merely a convenient cover for Islamophobia.
Anon
This. It was hilarious to me that he wanted to protect specifically LGBT people from terrorists (and not everyone from terrorists), but then the Republican party platform is so ridiculously hostile to LGBT issues. I was laughing at all the people in the conventions whooping and hollering at that line. As if Islamic terrorists, and not, say, employment discrimination, is the biggest threat to LGBT people. Classic diversionary argument, and the whole convention was like, “yaaaaaaaay!”
Mindy
+1,000 I heard that too and was just APPALLED.
Anonymous
lol what? The GOP has not embraced the gays. They are, however, happy to continue their policy of embracing billionaires, as are democrats. It’s not a pro gay position at all.
Anonymous
they have embraced the male ESCORTS, not the gays. duh.
http://nypost.com/2016/07/21/male-escorts-are-making-crazy-money-at-the-rnc/
bridget
I would suggest that you find, in real life, a conservative friend and listen to what she has to say. Take a stab at reading things like the National Review or Reason for discussion of gay marriage.
You will find that the “phobias” aren’t what you think they are, and the standing ovation will make perfect sense.
But if you don’t have any friends IRL who disagree with you, well, um, branch out.
Anonymous
lol you keep telling yourself there’s a non-bigoted non-hateful way to deny people fundamental human rights Bridget. Sorry, I’m not friends with bigots who would take away my gay friends rights.
Pot Kettle
Isn’t it a little bigoted and hateful to assume that everyone who disagrees with you is bigoted and hateful? That’s Bridget’s point– make some friends who don’t think like you, and listen to their point of view.
Anonymous
No, it’s not bigoted or hateful to disagree with a political ideology predicated on designating a group of people as undeserving of the rights of the majority.
Anonymous
Would you listen to the “complex viewpoint” of a man who thought women shouldn’t have full human rights? Or would you just determine, rightly, that he was a hateful bigot?
Anonymous
Nope. It’s called reality. If you don’t support gay marriage, you’re bigoted.
Anonymous
Right?
It’s like saying “I’m not racist, I just have complex views on whether white people should be allowed to marry black people.” It’s not a complex view point, it’s racism.
Do not need to branch out to include those people (racists/homophobes) in my life.
bridget
They are holding a view that was considered perfectly rational in every society and every culture, throughout all of human history, a type of unanimous agreement not seen in any other human institution, until 20 years ago.
No, you NEED to sit yourself down and do the kind of listening where your mouth is closed and your very closed mind is open.
I don’t say you need to agree, but painting some 7 billion people as “bigots” is an intellectual and moral non-starter.
Anonymous
Slavery was also considered pretty rational for a big chunk of history and throughout most cultures, and I don’t think anyone has complex views on that currently, because it’s clearly not acceptable to enslave people.
Also, I think you overestimate *every* culture throughout all of history unanimously agreeing, because there were very obviously LGBTQ people before 20 year ago, and some cultures were quite accepting of it.
So yeah, I don’t NEED to do anything, and certainly not anything that is suggested by someone who thinks discrimination is okay.
anon
So homophobia is fine because that’s the way it was done? Christians used to be murdered for their beliefs, maybe we should bring that back…
Aunt Jamesina.
No, people holding those viewpoints need to catch the f*ck up and join the 21st century. Coming from a huge family that spans the political range from center right to Tea Party, I’ve heard plenty of “complex” arguments about why we should deny a group of people their human rights. None are acceptable.
Lyssa
+1. People have complex points of view on these things. They aren’t simple stereotypes.
emeralds
How does one have “complex views” on whether one group of humans deserves a fundamental human right? Honestly curious.
Anon
Super liberal democrat here, and I’ve always found “complex views” to be code for “fiscal conservative for whom perceived economic improvements/their own personal potential economic gain trumps (no pun intended) whether or not people have fundamental rights and are treated equally and fairly”.
emeralds
I took your suggestion and am currently reading a pro-gay marriage article in the National Review, so. There’s that. A quick scan of other articles tagged under “gay marriage” are 1) appalling and 2) factually inaccurate, e.g., equating not permitting a person who is transgender to use the bathroom that aligns with their gender identity, to (and I quote) “forcing little girls to undress in front of strangers with penises.”*
*http://www.nationalreview.com/article/433859/social-conservatives-politics-why-we-lose-gay-marriage-and-unisex-bathrooms
Anonymous
You have to pick and choose over there. The only things worth reading (even if you disagree with them) are generally by Victor Davis Hanson and David French IMO.
Anonymous
You have to pick and choose over there. The only things worth reading generally (even if you disagree with them) are by Victor Davis Hanson and David French. And Kat Timpf!
Anonymous
Ugh, sorry for the double post.
anon
I’m a lesbian, please tell me why I don’t deserve the same rights as you. This isn’t a simple disagreement, this is my life. So please, go on.
Snick
Yes, it’s pinkwashing.
tesyaa
Pence is their VP candidate. Does anything more need to be said?
Shayla
Along those lines, I found it laughable that Trump said he’d take on violence…like the gun violence in Chicago. Because…Pence has been responsible for some of the most lax gun laws in Indiana. And, a lot (if not the most?) of the guns used in gun violence here stream through from Indiana.
Anon
Any stock market enthusiasts here? So hard to find women in real life who are into it. What do you think of the run in the last few weeks? Think the rally continues through yr end?
Anon
What do you mean by enthusiasts? Like day trading?
Um, yeah, my nest egg is in the market. But I generally don’t worry about day-to-day stuff because I expect to retire in a few decades or so. I believe in dollar cost averaging and passive investing, so…yeah, I am enthusiastic that the market does well, but, I don’t care week to week.
Brexit caused a lot of uncertainty, and we still have weak jobs numbers (although better than expected) and the presidential race is a huge overhang right now. So there’s all that going on….
Anon
Doesn’t mean you have to be a day trader by profession but someone who watches the market daily, trades often — whether that’s weekly or monthly. Not just the set it and forget it passive investing for retirement, which I do too.
There’s uncertainty and yet a rally 10 days into earnings season and new highs being made after almost 2 yrs of sideways movement. Looks like we’ll close above 2135 for the 2nd week in a row which was a resistance point. So yeah — if you don’t care about these things — you’re an index investor for retirement.
Anon
I love finance. Read Term Sheet and MoneyStuff every day. Avoid CNBC like the plague. Using terms like “Resistance point” makes it sound as though you are really into technical analysis, of which I am not a fan. I am a huge finance nerd and used to be a hedge fund trader (debt, not equity). And frankly, find day-to-day oscillations interesting, but I generally don’t have the time, and also don’t invest in specific equities, so it’s just fun to watch.
Erm, that’s a lie. I do have about 10K in fun money in individual stocks, but it’s more for giggles.
Anon
OP here — finally! Someone who understands. That’s awesome. I’m in a slower job now (though in law not finance) so I have more time on my hands so I find myself reading a lot more. And yes I also do fun money! Usually for market shocks like Brexit.
Elly
No because if the rally continues and everything feels good economy-wise, the folks at the Fed will get on with raising interest rates.
Anon
Rates do have to normalize eventually though. We can’t live in an artificial environment for ever. Companies need to get back to generating earnings even when their costs go up due to higher cost of capital.
Anon
Eh, disagree. There may be a new normal, now that there’s much higher global capital requirements for banks and still a lot of uncertainty re Dodd-Frank implementation and the fact that there are very few true “safety investments” or “safety currencies” anymore. Rates don’t have to go back to what we thought they were. And even if rates don’t rise, people may stay invested in equities because they are seeking return.
long, slow, volatile growth
I posted below.
I think interest rates will stay low for the next decade. With negative interest rats and the 10 year rate under 1.5% and 30-year rate just above 2%, I just don’t see interest rates rising up to 7%-9% in my lifetime.
Without a doubt, the Fed does have to raise rates to prepare for the next recession. I think getting up to 2%-2.5% in the next 12-18 months would be a good thing and not cause too much pain. It would also give the fed a little room to ease rates.
Anonymous
I’m invested in index funds but I love following the stock market. This last year has been unbelievable! The last 3 weeks, wow! I think stocks are making up for the growth that didn’t happen last year so I don’t think this is an anomaly or a bull trap.
I’m not a bear: I think the numbers just don’t indicate a crash coming. I do believe we are entering an era of long, slow, volatile growth. US stocks are one of the only “safer” investments with a positive return post-brexit and money will flow in.
Anon
OP here — I tend to agree. I think it’s been 1-2 yrs of lateral growth and this is somewhat compensating for that. Volatile though and I think that remains true for years to come; though if the market is in positive territory, I’ll take it.
Elly
No because if the rally continues and everything feels good economy-wise, the folks at the Fed will get on with raising interest rates.
Anonymous
I don’t disagree. I think raising interest rates will only cause a temporary dip lasting less than 1 month. It’s better in the long term to raise interest rates. This low rate environment is really not healthy.
Anon
How do you deal with people at work that you KNOW are judging you? And you know it bc they talk about how they discuss other work people with their DH — and it’s never flattering. It’s a woman my age who comes from the same background as me (big firm to govt) who is nice day to day, so when I started this job a yr ago, I became friendly with her (not overly friendly, just chatting a few min a day). In the last few months, I feel uncomfortable about it and am pulling back without making it obvious in my 30 person office. She basically comes across as — I’m perfect — bc she thinks she has an awesome education/work pedigree; has a husband; baby etc. Reality is — she went to a tier 2 law school, happened to land a big firm job where she lasted 3-4 yrs, until she had a baby, and now is in the gov’t thinking she’s perfect and better than everyone else. It’s the constant tiny comments on people who don’t own homes (I don’t), people who don’t have babies (I don’t and may never), as well as a — my husband and I are SUCH financial geniuses (while buying a rental apartment having done minimal research on it; forking over cash to financial advisors who aren’t even beating the market) that suggest a — I’m better than you — attitude. She got annoyed with me yesterday as we are looking to hire 1 candidate and she took glee in promoting the woman she wants (another young mom) while putting down another guy bc he had a typo on his cover letter and she’d NEVER be so dumb — bc she’s perfect.
I know from a work perspective — stay friendly but not talkative. But for whatever reason it annoys me to know that I am being talked about and thought of as some loser bc I stayed at a firm for 8 yrs instead of 4, and don’t have a husband or a kid.
anonymous
Reduce exposure. You don’t need that kind of nonsense in your life, and it’s unlikely to help your career.
Anonymous
I would be so tempted to come up with a passive aggressive way to to imply she had a baby as an excuse to jump ship from Biglaw because she wasn’t hacking it in Biglaw. But IRL, I’d just avoid her and ignore her as much as possible. Sounds like she’s trying to convince herself her life is awesome by telling others that it is.
Anon2
LOL. THIS. I wouldn’t do it but was thinking the same. OP keep in mind — she did 3.5 yrs in biglaw WHILE she had a baby? As you recall maternity leave is no less than 6 months and many take 9 months or 1 yr by adding unpaid. So she did biglaw for 2.75 yrs and she’s a biglaw hotshot?? Give me a break. She has no reason to look down on an associate who was grinding it out for 8 yrs on partner track bc she was NO WHERE close to that level. Anyone can be a junior associate. The rubber meets the road for midlevels and seniors and these days most people don’t even make it to those levels bc they’re quietly pushed out. She’s got issues.
Lyssa
It sounds like you’re judging her pretty heavily, too. If she’s annoying, then sure, keep your distance from her. But it sounds like you’re interpreting a lot of what she’s saying through a lens based on your perceptions about her. I doubt that she’s really claiming that she and her husband are financial geniuses or that she’s so perfect that she would never have made a typo. You don’t have to like her or be friends with her, though.
Anon2
OP here — she SAYS this stuff. She said — well I WOULD NEVER make a type on a cover letter. She said — well this job (financial agency w investment rules) CERTAINLY hurts those of us with investing prowess and is ok for those people who just want to invest on their own bc MY DH knows the best of the best financial advisors, we would NEVER just use index funds. As I was thinking — hmm — typically those who manage their own investments DO have a lot of financial prowess and didn’t you just tell me yesterday that one of your advisors can’t beat the market??
I’m just keeping my distance.
Anope
Do you ever play the Scientist game? Where you’re like, analyzing her scientifically? “My oh my, it seems that The Subject is projecting insecurities by expressly belittling others. This is an interesting tactic. Based on my research, I anticipate that with the next 24-48 hours, The Subject will return to her standard procedure of implied, rather than express, critiques.” Sometimes playing that game in my head helps make the situation funny for me, so that I can stop taking it seriously.
Anon
Is anyone a politics enthusiastic in an unpolitical day job? I have had the hardest times focusing this week because I just want to read all the RNC and DNC coverage!
Wildkitten
I recently picked up a pair of cheap “gold” hoops and I’ve loved wearing them as an alternative to pearls, so I want to get a less cheap pair. (The cheap pair was $5.) Any reason I shouldn’t get this pair? http://www.costco.com/Yellow-Gold-Polished-Hoop-Earrings.product.100079924.html Any other suggestions?
Senior Attorney
The reviews look middling but I’ve had good luck with Costco jewelry.
Amazon has some nice options, too. Just search 14K gold hoop earrings.
Wildkitten
Ah! I didn’t even think to look at the Costco reviews. They are not great. Thanks!
Anon4this
Has anyone else gotten stranded by the Southwest debacle?
pugsnbourbon
My flight for vacation leaves tomorrow at 1:00. I am very nervous.
Any Catholics out there?
I was at coffee with an acquaintance and she was telling me that anyone with a Catholic conscience could not vote for Hilllary Clinton bc of her stance on Abortion. I understand that abortion /right to life is a big thing for Catholics but does that trump all other issues? Just curious- no judgment. My friend didn’t seem to want to elaborate so I didn’t press it.
Anon
On both sides of the aisle, you will find voters whose most important issue is ________ and they will therefore select the candidate that aligns with their views on _________, regardless of that candidate’s position on every other issue.
And you can fill in the __________ with pretty much anything under the sun.
So, Yes. I’m not Catholic, and I am pro-choice, but I can absolutely believe that there are people who would NOT vote for Hillary solely b/c of her stance on abortion and consider that to be the most important issue, just as there are people who WOULD vote for Hillary solely b/c of her stance on abortion and consider that to be the most important issue.
Anon2
This. I think this happens in every election. People decide they have a position that is the hill to die on; and they WILL NOT vote for the candidate who doesn’t support their position, no matter how perfect he/she may be otherwise. For this woman, it’s abortion. I don’t know how she purports to speak for ALL Catholics though. There are plenty that are non practicing; practicing only for weddings/Christmas/easter etc.
stripes
I’m a Democrat who comes from a very religious Catholic family. Before my grandmother died, pro-life was her only litmus test for voting. It is out there. If you believe that abortion is murder, it can be a very motivating issue.
For me, I am of the Joe Biden school of thought on this. I wish heartily that there were no abortions, but my only basis is religious, so I can’t impose that on the country.
And I understand that abortion rates are actually lower when Democrats are in office because the social safety net is stronger.
Anyone
I’m a non-practicing Catholic, so I’ll bite. If you see it as taking an actual life, the moral equivalent of murder, it’s a big deal. I understand that reasonable people can disagree on whether it is that or not, but it is unreasonable to not understand that a person can believe that and would see it as a really big deal.
But, does it trump (oh, that word!) everything else? Probably not? There’s not really a Catholic doctrine that puts these in a hierarchy or anything (strangely enough, considering the structure of the Church). When war was a bigger left/right issue, for example, you could easily look to supporting leftist candidates for similar reasons. I also think that you should put less emphasis on the person’s beliefs that what the actual effects are likely to be. (Though that’s obviously a hard question – to go back to the war example, some people may have voted for Obama on the grounds that they thought that he would be more peaceful, when he’s pretty much continued the right-wing-style war efforts. In contrast, you could decide that a more hawkish president will lead to more peace through strength or something along that line.).
The Church really doesn’t sit on one side or another of the left/right line. Last I checked, Catholics are roughly 50/50 D or R, and it all really comes down to what you’ve decided is most important and what you think can be done about those issues.
Anonymous
There are other issue that flip the other way, like the death penalty. She’s being easily led.
stripes
Really? There are as many people put to death as there are abortions in this country? Listen, as I said above, I don’t follow Catholic -> Republican, but that’s a seriously weak response to use when you’re insulting another woman’s opinions and ability to make up her own mind.
Anonymous
That wasn’t the point at all but nice try.
Wildkitten
I agree with you completely on public policy, Anonymous, but if your test is “lives saved” and you think a fetus is a life, I think Stripes has a valid point about equating the death penalty with abortion as a balancing test between parties.
I personally care about the dignity of life after birth – healthcare, housing, food, etc – so I don’t balance just the death penalty with abortion, but I agree it’s not a good comparison.
lucy stone
I am a lazy Catholic who is also pro-choice, but there are a lot of Catholics who vote this way, and a lot of evangelicals I know who would otherwise be liberal but vote this way too. That said, my Catholic friends and family are split 50/50 on this issue and on how they vote.
lapsed Catholic
I left the Church because of Catholics like your friend and, specifically, Raymond Burke–may he rot on Malta. If you recall, Burke was the bishop who refused Kerry, a Roman Catholic and Democratic Presidential nominee in 2004, communion over the abortion/pro-choice issue.
I don’t believe Pope Francis is really changing the Church’s positions. He’s focusing more on trying to emphasize the pastoral side of theology. Didn’t he say at one point that the Church in the USA was focusing too much on issues like gay marriage and abortion? That there is more to being Catholic than being anti-abortion and anti-contraception?
When I was a Catholic, I was confused by other Catholics who vote Republican despite their position on the death penalty, gun control, military spending, welfare “reform”, immigration, and other positions that I think are fundamentally at odds with being Catholic.
So yes, it happens. Some Catholics vote only because they are anti-choice. Some Catholics view the issue more holistically (and pastorally).
Blonde Lawyer
I left the Catholic religion after the church I was attending took that stance about voting for Obama. The priest actually made it part of his sermon.